Alan Aragon article I copied

[Monger]

Originally Posted by T_Money_

I guess I don't see the cons of sweet potatoes? I guess they don't have as many micronutrients, but that's like saying screw fruit because it doesn't have enough protein.

By cons I was referring to GI and the carb content of spuds in general and not cons of sweet potatoes vs. white potatoes. Even the GI and carbs may not be a con depending on timing and one's goals. For you to eat them PWO, there probably is no con. For an obese person desperately trying to lose weigh with severe insulin insensitivity... it's probably a pretty big con.

The point that I was trying to make is just that I think Allen was trying to say it doesn't really matter which you chose in the big picture.

[TopCat]

Finally read this piece and I must say that given what I've read from Alan recently I really respect his opinions. I like the fact that he strips a lot of the complexity out of the whole "optimal pre/peri/post" WO nutrition. This reminds me very heavily of Beradi's G-flux philosophy (I think it's his, anyway).

I think instead of worrying my head so much about what shake to take and its composition, I should just time my meals a little more accurately.

[Ziltoid]

I thought I saw an article where he recommended fats PWO. I cant find it now. Does anyone want to correct me?

EDIT: I had it in a Word doc. Sorry for no source link.
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Effect on 24-hr Glycogen Resynthesis A common recommendation in sports and fitness circles is to avoid or minimize fat intake immediately after training, a time popularly called the “anabolic window” or “window of opportunity”. The fear of post-exercise fat is based on its ability to slow gastric emptying, and thus slow the release of glucose into circulation which in turn reduces insulin response and glycogen resynthesis. Is this a valid concern? First of all, exercise for varies in its ability to tap-out glycogen stores. Resistance training, as it’s commonly done for strength, bodybuilding, or general fitness, is not glycogen-depleting in fed subjects on moderate-volume protocols. To illustrate this, Roy and Tarnopolsky observed 9 sets of 10 reps at 80% of 1 rep max to cause an average muscle glycogen decrease of 36%.16 It’s important to note that subjects consumed 3 mixed meals approximately 3 hours apart leading into the trial, which was 3 hours after their 3rd meal. A fasted scenario would have been more glycogen-depleting, as would a more voluminous protocol. The interesting find of this trial is that there was no difference in glycogen synthesis rate between a mixed post-workout drink (66% carb, 23% prot, 11% fat) and a 100% carb drink. Both drinks had the same proportion of carb types, so that potential confounder was controlled.

In another example of the triviality of worrying about fat’s inhibition of glycogenesis, Burke’s team compared a control diet of 7g/kg of high-GI carbs with two experimental treatments consisting of the control diet plus a substantial amount of added fat (1.6g/kg) and protein (1.2g/kg), and a matched-energy diet which was the control diet with added carbs to equal the calories of the experimental treatments.17 Subjects trained for 2 hours at 75% VO2max, ending off the session with four 30-second sprints. Despite a high fat intake in the experimental group, no differences in muscle glycogen content were seen 24 hours after training compared to the low-fat groups.

Along these same lines, Fox and colleagues observed no difference in glycogen replenishment 24 hours after glycogen-depleting exercise despite the addition of 55g in the post-exercise meal and also in the two meals following it.18 Think about it, 165g of additional fat did not prevent the resynthesis of identical amounts of glycogen the next day. And yes, carbohydrate content was the same in both diets. So, unless you’ve trained to depletion, and are going to train the exact same muscles in another exhaustive event within 24 hours, concerns of post-exercise fat getting in the way of glycogen resynthesis is just plain silly – especially if your total daily fat intake isn’t stupendously high to begin with.

[Vedic]

They are only saying it doesn't block nutrient absorption. We already knew that lol. What I am saying and why you don't do fat PWO is fat is MOBILIZED from exercise. Ingesting fat will cause a traffic jam amongst the two leaving some for adipose tissue deposit.

[Ziltoid]

lol! duh, Im so stupid. Now I see. I guess I was reading so much yesterday that I confused my tiny brain. Thanks again Mr. Vedic. You da man! lol!

[cheath]

Thanks for the article Vedic. I've actually got that last little page he has, about the pre/post WO nutrition marked for easy reference.

My only confusion is that he has pre/periWO listed as 1:1 carb:protein, but in reading JB's Grappler's Guide, he implies to go with the same 2:1 pre/peri that you would go PWO. So I guess I'm a little confused on what the preWO should actually be.

I think one source of confusion is that Alan is saying 1:1 *PRE* workout, and he makes that clear. He also says to continue this *DURING* (i.e. peri) training, if it lasts as long as a typical BJJ class does.

However, JB never really distinguishes the time difference between preWO nutrition from periWO nutrition. He just says to sip a liquid carb protein drink *immediately prior to or during exercise*. Also, drink something similar after exercise. He recommends this as the 2:1 product (i.e. BioSurge).

So the real confusion comes in when I ask myself what should I be drinking during breaks? I do think the 1:1 should be a preWO coming from Alan's guidelines. A meal if it's 60-90 minutes before training, a liquid if it's 30 minutes before training. And of course 2:1 after. But the thought of sipping protein during water breaks at BJJ seems nasty. I keep wanting to go with a pure Gatorade drink peri-WO (i.e. during training).

I guess it boils down to peri-WO being an undefined period is what gets me. Most people imply it as a grey area around the time of workout.

[Monger]

cheath,

There will always be confusion and varying opinions on carb to protein ratio because it's highly dependant on variables such as individual goals, insulin sensitivity, training duration, and the glycogen depleting nature of the training. Most studies seem to use endurance activities for their testing models... guys like Aragon and Berardi need to take those studies and try to make real world recommendations for guys who don’t train in the same manner.

I believe that Aragon was talking more specifically in regards to a bodybuilding type training protocol, where as the reference you took from Berardi was for a grappler's training protocol. Obviously, they differ quite a bit and will probably also differ in glycogen depletion.

In my opinion, the higher the intensity and duration, the more one can benefit from a higher carb ratio. Something like strength training isn't going to need as many carbs as doing HIIT for an extended time.

I adjust my WO drinks based on what I’ll actually be doing, so they change in ratios quite often. Although keep in mind that immediate glycogen resynthisis probably isn't all that important in the big picture unless you're doing 2 a day workouts. More than not, if you have a good diet your glycogen stores will be replenished within 24 hours regardless. Total daily carb intake is going to be more important than peri-WO intake so if you're a little off there, it's not a big deal. Also, as Aragon stated, fending off catabolism is another huge benefit to using carbs peri-WO... but apparently, it doesn't take much to accomplish that.

And Surge isn't even 2:1. It's more like 1.5:1.

[Vedic]

Most of the time its splitting hairs. Adjust carb and fat consumption based on exercise output and recovery. Monger hit it all on the head perfectly.

[Ziltoid]

So where is the fat absorbed to if not in the intestines? Is this right? Just want to make sure since Im a little confused. Sorry.

[Vedic]

Fat is absorbed lymphaticaly, everything is in the intestines, but funtion diffently.

Here is some text.



Functions of GI organs
The GI tract begins at the mouth, where digestion begins with chewing. Saliva containing mucus and the enzyme amylase is secreted from 3 pairs of salivary glands, located in the head. Mucus moistens the food and amylase partially digests polysaccharides (starches). Food then reaches the stomach through the pharynx and eso****us.
The stomach is the sac that stores and digests food macromolecules into a solution called chyme. Glands lining the stomach secrete hydrochloric acid that dissolves food particles and protein-digesting enzymes, called pepsin.
Final stages of digestion and most of the nutrient absorption occurs in next portion of the tract: the small intestine. The small intestine is divided into 3 segments - duodenum, jejunum, and ileum.
The pancreas is a gland located behind the stomach. From its exocrine portion it secretes (1) digestive enzymes and (2) a fluid rich in HCO3- ions to neutralize the acid from stomach. The liver secretes bile. Bile contains HCO3- ions and bile salts to solubilize fats. Bile reaches the gall bladder through hepatic ducts and is stored in the gall bladder between meals. During a meal, bile is secreted from the gland by smooth muscle contraction and reaches the duodenum portion of the small intestine by the common bile duct.
Monosaccharides, amino acids and mineral salts are absorbed by transporter-mediated processes while fatty acid water diffuse passively.
Undigested material is passed to large intestine, where it is temporarily stored and concentrated by reabsorption of salts and water. Finally, contractions of rectum, the last part of large intestine, expel the feces through the anus.


Structure of GI Tract Wall
The luminar surface is covered by a single layer of epithelium containing exocrine and endocrine cells. The exocrine cells disintegrate and discharge into the lumen, releasing their enzymes. The epithelia with an underlying layer of connective tissue (lamnia propia) and muscle (muscularis mucosa) are called mucosa. Below the mucosa is a layer of inner circular and outer longitudinal smooth muscle called muscularis externa, which provides the forces for moving and mixing the GI contents. The outermost layer of the tube is made up of connective tissue called serosa. The luminar surface of the tube is highly convoluted into projections called villi and microvilli; both of which increase total surface area for absorption. The center of each villus has a single blunt-ended lymphatic vessel called lacteal. Venous drainage from the intestine transports absorbed materials to the liver for processing via the hepatic portal vein.
Digestion and Absorption


Carbohydrate
Digestion begins in the mouth by salivary amylase and completed in the small intestine by pancreatic amylase. Monosaccharides, such as glucose, galactose and fructose, are produced by the breakdown of polysaccharides and are transported to the intestinal epithelium by facilitated diffusion or active transport. Facilitated diffusion moves the sugars to the bloodstream.


Protein
Proteins are broken down to peptide fragments by pepsin in the stomach, and by pancreatic trypsin and chemotrypsin in the small intestine. The fragments are then digested to free amino acids by carboxypeptidase from the pancreas and aminopeptidase from the intestinal epithelium. Free amino acids enter the epithelium by secondary active transport and leave it by facilitated diffusion. Small amounts of intact proteins can enter interstitial fluid by endo- and exocytosis.


Fat
Fat digestion occurs by pancreatic lipase in small intestine. A monoglyceride and two fatty acids are produced in the digestive process. Large lipid droplets are first broken down into smaller droplets, by a process called emulsification. Emulsification is driven by mechanical disruption (by contractile activity of GI tract) and emulsifying agents (amphipathic bile salts). Pancreatic colipase binds the water-soluble lipase to the lipid substrate.
Digested products and bile salts form amphipathic micelles. These micelles keep the insoluble products in soluble aggregates from which small amounts are released and absorbed by epithelial cells via diffusion. Free fatty acids and monoglycerides then recombine into triacylglycerols at the smooth ER, are processed further in the Golgi and enter the interstitial fluid as droplets called chylomicrons, which are then taken up by the lacteals in the intestine.


Vitamins
Fat-soluble vitamins are absorbed and stored along with fats. Most water-soluble vitamins are absorbed by diffusion or mediated transport. Vitamin B12, because of its large size and charged nature, first binds to a protein, called intrinsic factor, which is secreted by the stomach epithelium, and is then absorbed by endocytosis.