[pescimove]

Originally Posted by Quest4Glory

I'm thinkin about just breaking down and giving it a go maybe the summer of crossfit or something idk, but I seem to spend more time thiking about what to do than doing these days.

Good attitude, only way you can really know about something is to do your due dilligence and then jump in and try it. Only way you're going to know if Ross, Crossfit, Westside, 5 x 5, Starting Strength, whatever works for YOU. Good luck.

[EZA]

CrossFit is the epitome of successful marketing on a foundation of terrible programming and philosophy. How exactly they were able to convince people that everyone should be doing the exact same workouts regardless of age, abilities, specific needs, or goals is beyond me. The foundation of their entire program flies in the face of everything that has been learned about human performance and stress physiology over the last 50 years.

Most of the reason they've been successful is they've somehow convinced people doing a whole bunch of random exercises is a smart way to train and following a workout of the day requires no thought process or planning from people so it's easy. If you train for any specific purpose at all I would highly recommend learning the basics of programming rather than just following some nonsense program that has no scientific basis behind it or rational programming involved in it whatsoever.

[XTrainer]

Still, it's infinitely better than 90% of what I see going on in my gym. And I'm not a CrossFitter myself, for the record.

[EZA]

I'd say it's better in some senses and worse in others. From everything I've heard from people that have gone to CrossFits around where I am, and the Seattle location was literally the first CrossFit affiliate in the nation by the way, there are a TON of injuries in the program.

I was told one day the guy running the place literally decided they should all go out and run a 10k for training out of nowhere despite never running any real distances previously to that. A lot of their affiliates are run by people with little to no real training in any strength and conditioning principles or techniques other than their little CrossFit seminars they go through and have no real place coaching and training people.

In a sense the lifts they do probably offer more benefit than the standard gym approach when done correctly, but then again performing heavy explosive lifts and training completely randomly without being physically prepared to do the things is a recipe for disaster in the long run. Taking a bunch of people, most of whom have little to no background in training outside of general health and fitness routines, and throwing them into an intense program of explosive and heavy lifts without any preparation work is one of the dumbest things you could possibly do.

There is no training progression, periodization, or methodical aproach whatsoever from what I've seen. Maybe most people in a regular gym don't get the best results, but at least most of them aren't getting hurt in the gym all the time either.

The least they could do is create some sort of progressive system within CrossFit where beginners work on different things than people who have been training there a a year or two. But then again this would go against their ridiculous "everybody should be doing the same thing" approach to training that they advocate so I doubt it'll ever happen. Their program has the potential to be ok if they just took the time to structure and organize it in a way that had any kind of rational thought or progression behind it.

[Urban]

Copied and pasted from a previous comment I made on crossfit:

Crossfit gets criticism from me based on its over rotation of drills and lackof specificity. These can both be rationalized when you consider the broad crossfit audience.

on rotation -
Right now I do three lifting sessions and three GPP sessions per week (I try anyways), and I rotate anything out the moment it stops progressing. So if I do "Mary" on monday, and managed a faster time next week, more resistance the next, and a faster time still the following week, why would I rotate it out if I'm still making progress. the moment it quits progressing, I'll swap it out for "claudia" or some ross enamait drill or something similar. However, If I'm an internet paradigm broadcasting my WOD's to thousands of people, one of them is bound to not make progress on mary next week, so its in my best interest to rotate it out with greater frequency to keep people interested.

on the lack of specificity -
Much of my gpp is geared towards firefighting. I do sled drags with an out of service fire hose, sled pushes for search and rescue practice, stair climbs, etc. But if I am running crossfit, I have to recognize not everyone wants to be a firefighter, in fact, most people just want "to get in better shape." so specificity isn't a big deal to me. Quite the opposite, being as general as possible holds a greater priority so people can be jacks of all trades and see the fruits of their labors (no matter how close to fruitless they may be) in as many areas as possible.

I don't hate crossfit for what it is, and fewer and fewer people are doubting its ability to improve gpp and crossifter ability to generate inventive GPP drills, but it doesn't constitute a complete system for most people who have any kind of goals or drive towards consistent regular progress. As a one size fits all, it's not terrible though.

[EZA]

From their website frontpage....

"We’ve used our same routines for elderly individuals with heart disease and cage fighters one month out from televised bouts"

This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen in awhile. If they honestly believe an MMA fighter 4 weeks out from a fight should be on the same program as an elderly with heart disease they are out of their minds and have no understanding whatsoever about how the human body works.

While I respect Urban's experience with CrossFit, my criticism isn't aimed at over rotation of drills or lack of specificity, it's on a lack of any real training progression and that their program isn't based on a real understanding of human performance. Obviously they cater to a broad audience, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a logical progression that would physically develop people in a well thought out manner that would be much safer and produce better results.

It is fundamentally flawed thinking to believe that having no structure to a program means it produces general results and this is better than specific. Doing everything at random doesn't mean you develop all sorts of different things, this is simply not how the human body adapts in response to stress. There is no such thing as a jack of all trades physiologically speaking, a marathon runner will never be a powerlifter and vice versa and even somewhere in the middle specific adaptations will always apply. Throwing a bunch of methods together at random doesn't mean the body gets better at everything and there are much better ways of progressively developing "general" fitness that will improve health than their haphazard approach.

In the end, CrossFit could be a good program if they took the time to create some structure in their program. Even with many different people following it and a broad audience, it would not be that difficult to segment the programs into different levels that would develop different things. How hard would it seriously be to create a beginner, intermediate, and advanced workout of the day at the very least? Or to create standards of various things you should be able to do before performing the next level of workouts?

If they are just trying to develop GPP then they seriously need to rethink their methods because they are very far off of how it should be done. If they are trying to be more than that they should take the time to develop some type of logical structure and rational approach to training.

And lastly, rotating drills is not the answer for continued improvement. The programs of most high level european athletes contain not more than 10-12 core exercises that they will use for most of their entire training career. If you ask their coaches whey they use so few exercises they will tell you they are the ones that improve performance in that sport so why would they use any other exercises? The key to continued development is understanding how to vary volume and intensity and use varying methods within the context of GAS to ensure progressive development. Simply rotating exercises or drills or whatever once you stop improving is not a very effective way to get the best results.

[MikeMartial]

Not that I particularly care for the opinion of others on this topic, but I did think the timing of this was oddly funny. Taken from the CF main site yesterday:

"Those who do not recognize the physiological import of CrossFit - unprecedented increases in work capacity across broad time and modal domains - are left with no rational explanation of CrossFit's popularity and reach. For these people I am typically seen as a marketing savant whose marketing strategies curiously won't replicate. It's like a blind guy wondering why everyone hangs out under lights at night." - Greg Glassman

[Bainbridge]

It always amuses me that hypothetical/theoretical/scientific explanations on why CrossFit doesn't work are from people who have never tried it with honest effort.

Here's the deal. Try it for 6 months - preferably under a recognized CrossFit coach. If it's not your thing, that's okay, but at least you'll have a better understanding of what it is. Trust me when I say that looking at it on paper and actually doing it are two VERY different things.

[MikeMartial]

Originally Posted by Bainbridge

It always amuses me that hypothetical/theoretical/scientific explanations on why CrossFit doesn't work are from people who have never tried it with honest effort.

Here's the deal. Try it for 6 months - preferably under a recognized CrossFit coach. If it's not your thing, that's okay, but at least you'll have a better understanding of what it is. Trust me when I say that looking at it on paper and actually doing it are two VERY different things.

Anthony you come from a powerlifting background, correct? What got you into Crossfit?

[EZA]

Here is what it comes down to:

I spent $300 to spend 3 days at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado and learn from some of the very best Weightlifting coaches in the entire country and be certfied from USA Weightlifitng as a Club Coach.

I spent less than $300 to attend a 2 day seminar from Dave Tate and others at Westside and learn from some of the very best Powerlifters in the nation.

I spent about $260 to spend an entire week at Dr. Mel Siff's house in CO and study with one of the best sports scientists in the country.

I can email Dr. Verkhoshansky, one of the true pioneers in the field of sports training, and ask questions on training on his discussion foum for free

People are spending up to $1000 to learn basic lifts from random "Crossfit" certified people with little to no background in exercise physiology, biomechanics, or coaching experience whatsoever and be told the best program is to just do everything at random because that's how real life works and how the body adapts.

If that's not an example of marketing I don't know what is.

Also, his statement "Those who do not recognize the physiological import of CrossFit - unprecedented increases in work capacity across broad time and modal domains" is a great example of total gibberish that sounds like something but actually means next to nothing.