| Conditioning Discussion With gas like that, you'll be done & down after one round. Let's work on your cardio a little bit... |
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04-21-2007, 11:57 PM
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#1 (permalink)
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SBC Underworld Czar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Behind you with a lead pipe.
Posts: 27,079
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Settling the issue of static stretching:
Alright, being someone who likes old school methods of training, but of this generation and having to accept many an advancement in learning...one thing I've seen a lot of around here is a general position that is anti-static stretching pre-workout. It's gotten a bit dogmatic and once something becomes dogmatic, typically people lose sight of why it was a strong point in the first-place. So let's straighten things out a bit and see if this subject really warrants the repetitious posting of "Static stretching reduces your strength and power, don't do it pre-workout."
This statement is not entirely without merit. But an article I recently came across written by Steven Fleck, PhD (who specializes in resistance training) shows that it's not all black-and-white.
One of the caveats of recent research given by Dr. Fleck is that most subjects in the studies that demonstrate detractive effects of static stretching pre-workout, were tested using isokinetic and isometric tests. The difference being that isokinetic involving measurement of strength and power at certain velocities, and isometric measuring strength when there's no visible joint movement. Problem is normal weight lifting exercises are not all-encompassed by these two criteria. Velocities change and joints move.
The studies Nokkonen et. al (1998) and Yamaguchi et. al (2005) both showed detractive effects of strength and power due to static stretching, as well as Frye et. al (2003). Strength was lost during bench presses, and knee extension exercises. The main two reasons for the decrease in strength and power are one, a decrease in muscle tendon stiffness. Loosening of the muscle tendons may affect the force able to be generated by the muscles. The second being a neurological change caused by stretching that result in decreasing of muscle fiber recruitment.
However, there are caveats to these studies, which are as follows:
- The studies that show a decrease in strength and power resulting from static stretching have VERY thorough stretching protocols prior to activity. The Yamaguchi study stretched the quadriceps with six different stretches, all held for 30 seconds, and 4 repetitions each. 20 minutes total spend on only stretching the quads. Do you know anyone who stretches THAT much? I don't.
- There also seems to be a finite period of time in which static stretching results in notable decrease of of strength and power. The time-frame appears to be 2-7 minutes for most notable detractions. So the quesion is can you wait 7 minutes after stretching to begin your workout?
- The last is that only the muscle groups stretched showed decreases in strength and power. Meaning if you stretch your legs on the day you do bench presses, your bench won't suffer.
So to sum up, static stretching can be fine and can be a helpful addition to your workout. There IS data to show that it can prevent some types of injuries. It shouldn't be demonized as detractive to strength-based routines. It won't be as long as you do the following:
1) Don't over-stretch.
2) Wait 7 minutes before starting your routine if you stretch muscles you plan to work that day.
3) Stretch different muscles than you plan to work that day.
And the last of course:
4) Stretch all you want POST-workout.
__________________
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04-22-2007, 01:20 PM
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#2 (permalink)
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White Belt
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 55
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i've just finished a research project comparing static, dynamic and weighted dynamic exercise prior to upper body performance. it is only an undergraduate project so my testing ability may not be up there with other published journals.
i found that a weighted dynamic warm up to be the best. this involved throwing a 5kg medicine ball.
dynamic stretching was also more effective than static strecthing and control. this involved arm swings etc.
static stretching did not increase performance compared to control (5min jog), but also did not decrease it like other research has suggested. the static stretch was made up of 10 second stretches repeated twice, in total lasting 7 mins.
the tests involved bench press one rep max and medicine ball throw.
most studies have been done investigating the lower body. if there control warm up involved a 5 min jog this could be seen as a warm up for the legs. however this may not be sufficient for the upper body.
there are two other journals published this year that also support the use of weighted dynamic warm ups. they looked at the lower body and used weighted vests:
Thompsen, A.G., Kackley, T., Palumbo, M.A. and Faigenbaum, A.D. (2007). Acute effects of different warm up protocols with and without weighted vests on jumping performance in athletic women. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 21(1), 52-56
Faigenbaum, A.D., McFarlend, J.E., Schwerdtman, J.A. Rataness, N.A., Kang, J. and Hoffman, J.R. (2006). dynamic warm up protocols, with and without a weighted vest, and fitness performance in females in high school female athletes. Journal of Athletic Training. 41(4), 357-363
i agree with KK that alot of the previous studies have weaknesses in there stretching routines and there testing. i think avela held his stretches for 1 hour! studies have shown that isokinetic dynanometers have a poor relationships with dynamic performance.
like i said, i am only an undergraduate and this is my first bit of research so take it as you like.
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04-22-2007, 01:33 PM
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#3 (permalink)
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SBC Underworld Czar
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Behind you with a lead pipe.
Posts: 27,079
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Excellent post, and thanks for the information.
__________________
"You Son of a bitch double-crosser. You are no good, your word is no good. Nothing is good about you. You're gonna get hurt, and by hurt, I mean Dead." - Frankie Carbo
Mods Worship the Devil!
For nutritional/supplement advice e-mail to: levantarathletics@yahoo.com. Serious athletes be prepared to tip $1-$5 via paypal for speedy responses.
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04-22-2007, 03:17 PM
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#4 (permalink)
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Senior Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lactate Threshold
Posts: 6,308
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It's funny how things come full circle.
While I still see more merit personally in dynamic vs static stretching, I think the key to the earlier studies was how long the static stretches were being held, like mr8du stated. There's probably a strong correlation to the amount of time a static stretch is held and the amount of time the muscle is in it's neuro-restriction phase. I've heard 5 minutes, I've heard one hour.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by King Kabuki
1) Don't over-stretch.
2) Wait 7 minutes before starting your routine if you stretch muscles you plan to work that day.
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Solid advice. I still wince when I see guys holding hamstring stretches for over 30 seconds after a brief 2 minutes of skipping, and then running over to the heavy bag...
__________________
"We need folks to think for themselves, experiment and run with the results."
-Robb Wolf
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04-22-2007, 03:23 PM
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#5 (permalink)
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Green Belt
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,101
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great posts, and I personally just do dynamic before workouts and then static after, although I never really bought into the static stretching before workouts is the devil, I have just always felt better for workouts doing dynamic movements as a warmup.
__________________
"Being focused on how well you "do" is a sure path to sucking.
Try new things, give up taps, have fun." Zankou
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04-22-2007, 03:51 PM
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#6 (permalink)
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White Belt
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 55
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have any of you guys tried weighted dynamic because i found it really effective. ive got people in my mma gym running round with weighted vests and chucking medicine balls at each other. people seem enjoy it as well as find it effective
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04-22-2007, 04:12 PM
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#7 (permalink)
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Senior Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Lactate Threshold
Posts: 6,308
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mr8du
have any of you guys tried weighted dynamic because i found it really effective. ive got people in my mma gym running round with weighted vests and chucking medicine balls at each other. people seem enjoy it as well as find it effective
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As a warmup? No. To me, that would seem more suitable for the main part of a conditioning workout.
__________________
"We need folks to think for themselves, experiment and run with the results."
-Robb Wolf
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04-22-2007, 04:16 PM
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#8 (permalink)
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Blue Belt
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 744
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The Journal of Athletic Training article that mr8du cited is actually referring to a whole warmup routine with a weight vest on, if I remember correctly, and the weight wasn't a huge ammount, it was I think 5% of the athletes bodyweight. If it's the study I'm thinking of it was done using highschool aged girls as subjects, so it was really not that much weight.
Dynamic warmup is essential. Every warmup (regardless of what it is for) should include three components: 1) General Cardio Warmup, 2) Dynamic Warmup which can include dynamic stretching, and 3) Sport Specific Warmup, because you need to start getting those cognitive skills going as well as the physical ones.
The literature on stretching is all very muddled, because for one thing no one uses the same stretch protocols or the same muscles, the various studies measure many different responses, and the only thing that people really care about is what will make them perform better, which is almost impossible to study in a controlled randomized prospective study.
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04-22-2007, 04:27 PM
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#9 (permalink)
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White Belt
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 55
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yes when i say a weighted dynamic warm up i only mean a very small weight, 5% for the weighted vest and 5 kg for the medicine ball. you don't want to use to much as you will get fatigued. there is a fine line betwen optimal potentiation and fatigue. studies suggest that a 4-5 minute rest minumum should be given following dynamic warm up
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04-22-2007, 05:40 PM
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#10 (permalink)
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Green Belt
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,413
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Is it possible that the effectiveness of static or dynamic stretching could vary from person to person? I ask because, normally my warm up routine (for weight lifting) is just static stretching for ~5 minutes, not counting the 5 minute walk to the gym. A while ago I read an article that said static stretching is actually bad, and dynamic stretching is the way to go, so I changed my warm up to be jogging for 5 minutes on the treadmill and removed the static stretching, but I felt like this actually hurt my performance for the session. I feel more comfortable after static stretching, so I went back to doing it that way.
So basically, what is the proper way to warm up? Is there any clear cut method?
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