Distance Running - Misconceptions

I'm reading often on here that distance running doesn't really aid conditioning for fighting purposes. I disagree, but don't want to argue, so much as give some information.

My impressions are that the distance running is being equated to slow, comfortable volume. Of course this will limit conditioning improvement. But so will hitting a bag for 15 minutes at a slow comfortable pace. So will lifting weights while remaining comfortable up to the last set. That doesn't mean bag work and lifting are bad, but that you're doing it wrong. That's what I'm perceiving for the distance runs.

Run at a good tempo. By that, I mean a pace you know you can handle, but that gets the blood pumping. RUN, don't just jog. Also, do some threshold. Threshold means a tough, constant and challenging pace that has you bent over and gasping at the end. The last 25% of the run should be hurting while you maintain pace. Don't go out so fast that you're rigging at the end. You also have "fartleks" which are uneven paced runs (comfortable paced, but maybe a few 1 minute faster paced surges during them).

Depending on the entire training program, the long, slow runs should only be recovery days from previous tempos/thresholds, or maybe a morning run to compliment the afternoon workout, or possibly very long distance runs that can burn the calories. The latter can make the above runs much easier (ability to run 6-7 miles will make those 3 mile runs and intervals much easier).

In my case, I have a long-distance running background, and definitely think it's given me a huge headstart for the combat fitness needed. At least consider what I stated above before eliminated distance runs.

[Revok]

But isn't there are huge difference between running aerobically (~150-170bpm) and running for endurance (~170+ bpm)? I was under the impression that pushing too hard during distance runs places you in that useless nether-zone, neither aerobic nor anaerobic, and rather destructive to muscle and strength.

I understand that this zone is ideal for runners, but would a fighter not be better served by sticking to a combination of aerobic running and HIIT? Hovering between the two seems like a case of falling between two stools...

Originally Posted by Revok

But isn't there are huge difference between running aerobically (~150-170bpm) and running for endurance (~170+ bpm)? I was under the impression that pushing too hard during distance runs places you in that useless nether-zone, neither aerobic nor anaerobic, and rather destructive to muscle and strength.

I understand that this zone is ideal for runners, but would a fighter not be better served by sticking to a combination of aerobic running and HIIT? Hovering between the two seems like a case of falling between two stools...

I can't answer those. My training's detailed-oriented regarding the running, but I never got into the beats/minute, heartrate zones, or even 5K-paced intervals, etc.. I run strictly by feel and the watch, and base it all off those. In addition, the MMA-specific stuff is still new ground to me, and ever-changing at my end. Therefore, I can't really state exactly how the running should be organized into the regimen, even though I made a couple suggestions earlier.

BUT..... because of my lacking full MMA training (and even scientific running) knowledge, I wasn't trying to argue for distance running, but to state that it's not necessarily slow and comfortable. Therefore, we should be aware of and at least consider the other distance running alternatives, that I haven't read about on here, (but addressed in the 1st post) before eliminating.

I don't know your (Revok) running background, but it seems like you definitely have one.

The biggest difference in training philosophy between distance racing and MMA is the aerobic emphasis. To race well, in say 6 months, you know probably as well as I do that the aerobic system needs to be "right" before hitting the anaerobic work. Of course MMA is not training to be a long-distance runner, BUT a stronger aerobic system will enable better anaerobic work when the time comes. That's part of the running bible. Now MMA definitely demands much more anaerobic attention, but the underlined above is my 1st thought when MMA'ers just jump into intensity workouts, without ever addressing the aerobic fitness. Most of MMA's fitness is anaerobic, but having some prerequisite aerobic strength would seem very advantageous.

For example, since I can run up to 12 miles daily, I'm able to go up to 20 400M intervals in challenging recovery times, while someone else will do maybe 5-6 intervals with longer recovery. Without the endurance, they'll never get up to my level, and achieve as good an anaerobic workout (running-wise). This also helps my bagwork, etc... I think it's a good idea for MMA'ers to at least minimally address that aerobic endurance. Will intensity-only allow them to increase their training ability that much?

[Ian Coe]

Whilst not a MMA, I have found the introduction of long LSD cardio (bike, eliptical, rowing....I'm having to lay off running and skipping due to a injury) in the regiion of 45 min at a...dare I say leisurely pace, is helping me.

I need to up the pace, since I'm at about 130bpm somethings

[Revok]

Originally Posted by jjj83

I don't know your (Revok) running background, but it seems like you definitely have one.

The biggest difference in training philosophy between distance racing and MMA is the aerobic emphasis. To race well, in say 6 months, you know probably as well as I do that the aerobic system needs to be "right" before hitting the anaerobic work. Of course MMA is not training to be a long-distance runner, BUT a stronger aerobic system will enable better anaerobic work when the time comes. That's part of the running bible. Now MMA definitely demands much more anaerobic attention, but the underlined above is my 1st thought when MMA'ers just jump into intensity workouts, without ever addressing the aerobic fitness. Most of MMA's fitness is anaerobic, but having some prerequisite aerobic strength would seem very advantageous.

For example, since I can run up to 12 miles daily, I'm able to go up to 20 400M intervals in challenging recovery times, while someone else will do maybe 5-6 intervals with longer recovery. Without the endurance, they'll never get up to my level, and achieve as good an anaerobic workout (running-wise). This also helps my bagwork, etc... I think it's a good idea for MMA'ers to at least minimally address that aerobic endurance. Will intensity-only allow them to increase their training ability that much?

I agree with much of what you're saying. I'm a big proponent of training the aerobic base with dedication, rather than plugging away at HIIT and relying on the "14% aerobic benefit" it supposedly delivers as a pleasant side-effect. Just doing HIIT makes as much sense to me as only using max weights-low reps in the gym and expecting to develop excellent muscle endurance - that ability just won't develop, at least not to the degree that it would via dedicated endurance lifting routine. So basically: equal regard for all elements of fitness is the key, as each element complements the next. Aerobic ability forming the foundation of all fitness, it therefore becomes important to train in a dedicated manner with LSD type exercise.

But at the same time I think a fighter has to be wary of pushing too hard during LSD and spending too long in that uppermost aerobic/endurance zone - this zone I think is where a lot of what people fear about LSD running comes true: decrease in fast twitch capability, muscle loss, greater stress on joints, CNS depletion, inconveniently long recovery times due to lactose response, etc. All of which makes you a great distance runner, but a worse fighter.

I'll have to read up some on exactly how aerobic capability develops, but currently I'm of the opinion (based just on my own experience & anecdotal stuff I've read) that it increases simply as a result of quantity. This might be a little difficult for the hardcore (male) athlete to grasp, as we are so accustomed to going balls-out 110% all of the time.

But simply continue to exercise aerobically, without pushing yourself too hard, and your aerobic ability will increase - you will get faster, you will get fitter, your body will naturally get stronger, without necessarily having to 'gut it out' and really destroy yourself physically. Pushing too hard during aerobic training might be counter-productive, is my point.

[Q mystic]

Distance running(5 miles) is used in the off-season in the olympic boxing/judo program if my source is correct(level 2 or 3 nccp coach). Not sure about the intesity of the runs though.

Then as you switch training phases it turns to more sport-specific runs. Told it will increase the potential of your anaerobic threshhold. But have read good counter-points so...?

[Q mystic]

Originally Posted by Revok

I agree with much of what you're saying. I'm a big proponent of training the aerobic base with dedication, rather than plugging away at HIIT and relying on the "14% aerobic benefit" it supposedly delivers as a pleasant side-effect. Just doing HIIT makes as much sense to me as only using max weights-low reps in the gym and expecting to develop excellent muscle endurance - that ability just won't develop, at least not to the degree that it would via dedicated endurance lifting routine. So basically: equal regard for all elements of fitness is the key, as each element complements the next. Aerobic ability forming the foundation of all fitness, it therefore becomes important to train in a dedicated manner with LSD type exercise.

But at the same time I think a fighter has to be wary of pushing too hard during LSD and spending too long in that uppermost aerobic/endurance zone - this zone I think is where a lot of what people fear about LSD running comes true: decrease in fast twitch capability, muscle loss, greater stress on joints, CNS depletion, inconveniently long recovery times due to lactose response, etc. All of which makes you a great distance runner, but a worse fighter.

I'll have to read up some on exactly how aerobic capability develops, but currently I'm of the opinion (based just on my own experience & anecdotal stuff I've read) that it increases simply as a result of quantity. This might be a little difficult for the hardcore (male) athlete to grasp, as we are so accustomed to going balls-out 110% all of the time.

But simply continue to exercise aerobically, without pushing yourself too hard, and your aerobic ability will increase - you will get faster, you will get fitter, your body will naturally get stronger, without necessarily having to 'gut it out' and really destroy yourself physically. Pushing too hard during aerobic training might be counter-productive, is my point.

Good post. So say, if I run 40 minutes in off season for judo then I should keep it 'lite'. Why wouldn't I go for 40min in the red zone? How would that turn to muscle-loss and cns depletion? Thanks.

[Revok]

Originally Posted by Q mystic

Good post. So say, if I run 40 minutes in off season for judo then I should keep it 'lite'. Why wouldn't I go for 40min in the red zone? How would that turn to muscle-loss and cns depletion? Thanks.

I believe it would. Aerobic training should be a phase that leaves you better prepared for HIIT. If you push too hard during this aerobic phase, and instead train in the tougher endurance zone, then yes you'll improve your cardiopulmonary fitness, but the high demands it places on your muscles and CNS would leave you far weaker, slower (as in low fast-twitch respnse) and lighter than you may be able to recoup. It's too steep a trade-off to be considered wholly beneficial.

Whereas if you'd took it easy and stayed in the comfortable aerobic zone, you'd still have developed a necessarily strong aerobic base, but also avoided the unwanted strength/weight/speed losses that will greatly set back your HIIT capabilities.

[Revok]

http://www.leigh.org/running/jog.html

^ This is one of the best expositions on aerobic training I've read, and does a perfect job of describing the nature and purpose of LSD, and the need for restraint.

Do not bother with distance. It is effort and time that do those good things to our bodies. This equation frees us from the tyranny of speed and distance. There is no need then, to count laps or measure miles; no need for the stopwatch and the agonized groans that go with it. Simply dial the body to comfortable and go on automatic pilot. Then continue to fatigue or 30 minutes, whichever comes first.