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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,454
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what say you
By Ian King
"Training Truth or Meaningless Misconception?
Q: I heard a personal trainer at my gym tell a client that when doing lunges, the knee must be directly over the foot and must never wander past the toes. Any truth to that?
A: I don't know about "truth," but I can say that the blind and dogmatic teaching of this by personal trainers has contributed to some serious misconceptions. Let's examine this hand-me-down "truth" objectively.
Before I even address the specifics of your question, I want to discuss absolutes in relation to exercise. I don't like absolutes and I don't believe they're appropriate. When I hear them, I form the opinion that the provider of the information has a limited ability to process information!
If a coach or fitness instructor is teaching a large group of people, I can see the need to generalize. But when it's a one-on-one situation, there's no reason to blindly pass on generalizations. For example, some will say that deep squats are bad. For whom? A person who's just had bilateral knee replacements? A beginner? A top level athlete? Listen, no exercise is bad! Exercises may be appropriate or inappropriate based on the individual characteristics of the person doing them.
The key here is to know that the exercise may be associated with certain outcomes. Once you're trained in the associations and then learn the individual characteristics of the person to whom the exercise is being applied, you have the information needed to make an informed, individualized decision! There are some well-accepted associations. Here are a few:
• The lower you bend at the knees, the greater the loading at the patella-femoral joint.
• The greater you flex forward at the hips, the greater the loading on the lower back.
• The wider you grip the bar in the bench press, the greater the stretch and stress placed on the shoulder.
• Pressing and pulling to the back of the head (as in pulldowns, overhead presses, etc.) places more stretch and stress on the shoulder joint than doing the same from the front of the head.
Nowhere above did I say that wide-grip bench presses should never be performed or that deep squats are bad for the knees. That's not accurate! I must look at the associations, then at the individual who may be performing these exercises. Only then can I make a decision.
Back to the lunge. Let's examine both parts of the generalization:
"The knees should never go past the toes."
This is not correct! In fact, this occurs in many human movements. It's quite possible that in certain persons with specific limb length-to-trunk ratios or specific flexibility situations, that every time they squat or do lunges their knees go past their toes. And what about Olympic lifters? Checkout some of them in the bottom of the snatch or cleans. Are not some of their knees exceeding the vertical line of the toes?
What I can present is an association: the more the knees extend toward and beyond the toes, the greater the pressure on the patella-femoral joint (under the knee cap). Is this bad? Depends on the individual! If you have degeneration in that joint, you may find it inappropriate. If you have a healthy joint, it may not be a concern.
So, there's some truth in this hand-me-down "exercise principle", but anyone who passes it on verbatim is doing a disservice to accuracy!
"The knee must be directly over the foot."
I put more value on this statement, but again, I don't teach it as an absolute. Let's explore my reasons for giving this line more support.
For me, it's not about the increased stress on the lateral or medial collateral ligaments, or medial or lateral joint surfaces of the knee. At the relatively slow speeds used within the four walls of a gym, this issue may be overrated. For me, it's about developing appropriate muscle balance. If you allow the knee to drift in (medially) or out (laterally) from the line of the upper leg, you're creating a muscle imbalance in length, strength and/or stability around the knee and hip joint.
The ramifications from creating or reinforcing this hip/knee imbalance extend way beyond the gym. For example, if this pattern of movement (knee in or out) is reinforced, it'll affect the way you walk, stand up from a chair, jog and sprint. It's when this imbalance is present at higher speed or in higher volume movement patterns that it can cause damage.
For example, if you allow the knees to drift in, you're teaching the external rotator and abductors of the hip and knee to be stronger than the internal rotators and adductors of the hip and knee. If this pattern occurs in gait, you may see increased wear on the medial joint line of the knee, stress on the medial meniscus, stress on the medial collateral, reduced rotation of the tibia on the femur and increased pronation at the foot, just to name a few!
If function imperfections don't cause you to break into a sweat, consider that your hypertrophy may also be limited if a muscle isn't working optimally, which will be inevitable if you allow such an imbalance to hang around and get worse. Now I can see a few more of you are concerned! So yes, it's a good training tip to keep the knee tracking over the foot in the lunge or squat.
So, in conclusion, there's some truth in the old saying you shared with us, but I'd prefer to see it passed down with some thought applied rather than in a black and white way! A final point on this: there's the medical/legal issues where people are scared to break from the mainstream trash that's taught because they fear they'll be sued. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. What I know is this: don't live by F.E.A.R. (False Evidence Appearing Real)! If it was me, I'd want to know the best information for my outcome in training, not what the fear-driven trainer is willing to believe!
Pulldown Palaver
Q: People say not to do behind-the-neck pulldowns because of the injury factor. As such, I do pulldowns to the front. Is it working the muscles the same way? In other words, if they work the same way, is there any point in performing behind-the-neck pulldowns?
A: Yes, I believe there's value in including pulling to the back of the head as well as to the front. But like the previous question, you've stumbled upon a pet peeve of mine. Allow me to bring some sanity to this topic!
Anyone who's been around a while in the physical preparation field has seen the list of so-called "contraindicated exercises" grow to ridiculous proportions! Each year people feel the need to add more to this list! Why? Maybe it's to feel important. ("Hey, I was the one who discovered that exercise 'X' was bad!") Maybe some institution somewhere in the US has its annual revenue relying on the expansion of this list! (Kind of like the oversupply of lawyers in the US, which means some of them litigate to survive!)
Yes, behind-the-neck pulldowns do place more stress on the shoulder than those performed in front, but it's not bad and shouldn't be banned! The real danger is a person that's avoided using a particular range because of bullshit like this myth, and so now he has no range, function, or strength, in those joint angles. If the human body was born with a movement ability and you deny that range exposure, you're doing more damage than good. You know the rule: use it or lose it! I'd rather you use the range, even with only a light load, than ignore it altogether.
So yes, it's worth doing pulls and pushes to the back of the head. Just make sure you do it pain free and progress in load. Now, if you're a person who can't pull or push vertically from behind the head, you have a physical limitation which should be addressed, not avoided! The imbalances in program design and lack of stretching in strength training has left many unable to press and pull behind the head. Fix the imbalance, then return progressively to pressing and pulling vertically behind and in front of the head. Now, will your life come to an end if you can't or never will be able to press or pull vertically from behind the head? No, of course not. But make sure you have a good reason for not doing so.
Finally, I do believe that the specific adaptations to pressing and pulling behind verses in front are significant and worthy, despite the line of movement being only inches different. Pressing from behind for me is superior in some ways in that it creates strength and length in a more optimal postural position — shoulder blades back and down. So even if you don't find it safe to do your maximal loading behind the head (and after years of training I now no longer go behind the head in max strength vertical pulling), do some light work behind to retain the range!"
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