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Old 08-01-2006, 04:22 AM   #1 (permalink)

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Westside for skinny bastards question

On the max effort lifts such as the squat and deadlift it says to work up to a max of 3-5. I was wondering what he means by "work up to" does he mean progressively lower the reps each sessino until you're comfortable doing reps that low or does he mean 10 reps 8 reps 6 reps 3 reps.

Also I was wondering how many sets are recommended when just starting off on max effort. Right now I just try to do 5x5. Is this good? Sorry if I confused anyone, but most of the regulars seem to be familiar with wfsb,
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Old 08-01-2006, 04:23 AM   #2 (permalink)

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Also: Do you think it's a good routine for me if I train Muay Thai twice a week? I dont really do sprint drills or leg conditioning at the moment but I think alternating squats and deadlifts every other week should be adequate for now. If I do both deadlift and squats the same week I'm usually too sore during muay thai.
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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you should progressively add more weight to the bar each set, working up to your 5RM. So if you're 5RM on bench is 200lb then you might go:

150 x 5
160 x 5
175 x 5
185 x 5
200 x 5

or however you're most comfortable doing it, it's left open-ended so people can choose the way which best suits them.
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Old 08-01-2006, 03:48 PM   #4 (permalink)

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TTP hit it on the head. Do sets of 5 reps, adding weight to the bar each time until you hit a 5 rep max. To work to a three rep max, I like to start with sets of 5 and start doing sets of three at a weight before my 5 rep max.
Example:
135x5
185x5
205x5
225x3
240x3
255x3

This routine is great for someone training a sport. It's only 3 days a week and fits in nicely with whatever else you do. If three times a week is too much, he has another version for inseason football that might interest you, and he also has a 2 day/week one that emphasizes punching power.
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:40 AM   #5 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewy37
TTP hit it on the head. Do sets of 5 reps, adding weight to the bar each time until you hit a 5 rep max. To work to a three rep max, I like to start with sets of 5 and start doing sets of three at a weight before my 5 rep max.
Example:
135x5
185x5
205x5
225x3
240x3
255x3

This routine is great for someone training a sport. It's only 3 days a week and fits in nicely with whatever else you do. If three times a week is too much, he has another version for inseason football that might interest you, and he also has a 2 day/week one that emphasizes punching power.
Thanks for replying.

Where can I find his other routines? I think i've seen the holiday workout, which is two days a week. I'm not sure if that's defranco's but i'd like to see the routine he has that emphasizes punching power.
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Old 08-02-2006, 04:13 AM   #6 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT420MT
Thanks for replying.

Where can I find his other routines? I think i've seen the holiday workout, which is two days a week. I'm not sure if that's defranco's but i'd like to see the routine he has that emphasizes punching power.
This is WSFSB II: http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/articles.htm
The punching power one was in one of the Ask Joe links. There's a lot of good information in there if oyu take the time to read it all. Since I can't find the exact link, I'll post the program here (I saved it on my computer). Personally, I like WSFSB. Using it I went from 255 max on decline bench to 315x3. I deadlifted 405 for the first time when using this program, and I squatted 405. Come to think of it, I don't really know why I'm not still using this program. Anyway, good luck with whatever you choose.

Q: Dear Joe,
Assuming technique is solid, what strength/flexibility exercises would you recommend to a fighter who wants to throw straight punches faster, throw hook punches faster, throw round kicks faster and have quicker shots for takedowns. (You can substitute faster with harder if you want.) You can do just one if you don't have time. Maybe top 10 exercises for these with rep/rest schemes or whatever.

Also, I think the most valuable meals of the day are pre, during and post workout. What do you use on your athletes for these meals?

John

A: John,
You always seem to come up with some very specific/in-depth questions. I’ll try my best to answer some of your questions without writing a novel. Let’s examine how to throw a more powerful punch for starters. Below is a sample training split. I made it so you only have to strength-train 2 days per week. I think this is the best bet for fighters due to the fact that they’re usually kicking the crap out of each other 5-6 days a week. Remember that if you can’t recover, you can’t get better. This 2-day split is also pretty simple. Too many so-called “experts” in this field design ridiculous workouts that look cool on paper, but aren’t practical, or sometimes even possible, in the real world. Check out the below workout and let me know what you think. (I would throw in abs 2-3X a week after “fighting” workouts. Always perform standing, weighted ab work at least once a week.)

Day 1

Maximal Strength Complex Training

A1. 14” barbell bench press w/ chains – 6 sets of 3 reps

A2. Heavy bag straight punches – 6 sets of 15 seconds. Throw straight punches (alternating b/t right & left hand) for 15 seconds. Do 3 sets from a right-handed stance and 3 sets from a southpaw stance.
*Rest 10 seconds between A1 & A2. Rest 3 minutes after each superset.

Supplemental Upper Back/External Rotator Work

B1. Chest supported rows or Bent-over dumbbell rows – 3 sets of 12 reps

B2. Seated external rotation, elbow on knee – 3 sets of 15 reps
*Rest 10 seconds between B1 & B2. Rest 90 seconds between supersets.

Supplemental Posterior Chain Work

C. Reverse Hyperextensions – 4 sets of 10 reps.
*Rest 60 seconds between sets.

Notes on this sample workout

Notice I chose a maximal strength superset to start the workout. Remember that maximal strength builds the foundation for all other forms of strength – including explosive power. You can’t throw a powerful punch if you don’t possess a base level of maximal strength. The best way to get maximally strong is to lift heavy weights and do lots of sets!

Most fighters spend the majority of their time in the weight room doing strength endurance work. Strength endurance and lactic acid tolerance training must be incorporated into the training plan, but not at the expense of maximal strength. Also remember that fighting, in and of itself, is the best way to get into “fighting” condition. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems most fights either last a couple of seconds because someone gets knocked out, or they end up going the distance. So both maximal strength and muscular endurance are important. Just remember that if you want to put the fear into your opponent that you can knock his ass out at any given moment, you must get strong!

Notice I chose a flat barbell bench press, whereas most coaches say that an incline bench is more beneficial for increasing punching power. My philosophy is that, unless you’re a midget fighting someone 2 feet taller than you, a flat bench is just as beneficial. (Benching on a 10% incline would probably be the most “specific”.)

Always use bands or chains attached to the bar when trying to increase punching power. They help to eliminate the deceleration phase of the barbell when pressing.

After your heavy pressing movement, always rest 10 seconds before going into your punching drills. 10 seconds is just enough time to recover slightly from the heavy lifting, but it’s also short enough that the motor units are still activated from the lifting. Throwing the punches while the motor units are still in a heightened state will help to “synchronize” them. This will help your strength from the lifting to become “specific” to the movement you’re trying to improve upon (in this case, punching).

Some people say shadow boxing is just as good as hitting the heavy bag after the strength-training movement. IT’S NOT! Shadow boxing will do jack to increase your punching power. When you don’t actually hit something, you spend half of the punch decelerating.

You’ll be training the upper back and external rotators with higher reps because they are not the prime movers in throwing a punch. The main goal is to put some muscle on your upper back and rotators to prevent any imbalances and shoulder problems from punching. Also, by increasing the strength of your external rotators, you’ll be more likely to throw an explosive punch without any inhibitory response from your Golgi Tendon Organ. This is called the “tension effect.”

You will also be doing extra reverse hypers on this “upper body” day because I feel you can’t get enough posterior chain work. We all know that it is the hips that initiate the power when punching, so we will do some extra work in that area.

By the way, if you wanted to increase the power of your hook punches, you could do the following: Perform the same workout but substitute the 14” grip bench press with heavy dumbbell flyes. I would do 6 sets of 4-5 reps with the flyes and superset them with hook punches into the heavy bag. (I don’t like doing flyes in the 1-3 rep range. 4-5 reps is still heavy enough to get a maximal strength benefit.)



Day 2 (2-3 days after Day 1)

A. Power Snatch – 6 sets of 2 reps, rest 2-3 min. b/t sets
OR
A. Box Squats with bands (parallel) – 6-8 sets of 2 reps, rest 30-45sec. b/t sets

B. Barbell Reverse Lunges – 3 sets of 10 reps each leg, rest 10 sec. b/t legs & 2 min. b/t sets

C. Incline, weighted glute-ham raises – 3 sets of 8 reps

D. Standing cable external rotation, elbow at side – 3 sets of 12 reps each arm, rest 10 sec. b/t arms & 30 sec. b/t sets

Notes on this sample workout

I gave you a choice between power snatches & box squats. I feel both work. If you’re not skilled in Olympic lifting, I strongly encourage you to box squat. It’s not worth the time to learn the Olympic lifts with all of the other aspects of training you have to perform. Learning to box squat is much faster & easier. If done correctly, it’s also a great exercise! (In my opinion, it’s even better than the Olympic lifts.)

If you choose to box squat, I recommend going with a wider stance and really focusing on “spreading the floor” with your feet. This really activates the hips and I feel the strength gains are almost immediate.

When performing the barbell reverse lunge, make sure you incline your upper body forward, as you step back with your leg. You actually want the knee of the stationary leg to pass your toe (while keeping your foot flat on the ground). Your back should be arched and your chest should be over the stationary thigh in the bottom position. This works the sh*t out of your hip flexors, adductors & VMO’s. There’s a great picture of Dhani Jones in the perfect bottom position of this exercise in the training pics section of this site. Performing this exercise in this specific manner makes a world of difference!

Hopefully, you have access to a glute-ham bench. Prop the back of the bench on a 4” step or box. This will make you have to oppose gravity for a longer period of time in this exercise. Also, hold a weight plate over your chest. Anyone who can’t perform this exercise on an incline with added weight, probably can’t punch themselves out of a wet paper bag. This will give you something to work for on this exercise. It will also get your posterior chain strong as hell!

To finish Day 2 of this workout, you will do extra external rotator work. This time you will keep your upper arm at your side. For full development of the external rotators, you must vary your upper arm positions. I am a strong believer that increasing your external rotator strength will carry over to more explosive punches. Again, by getting the posterior shoulder musculature strong, you will greatly reduce the inhibitory effect of the Golgi Tendon Organ when blasting someone in the face!
O.K., let’s move on to your nutrition question. I will give you some PRACTICAL guidelines.



Pre-workout meal: This depends on when the athlete works out during the course of the day. Most meals I prescribe are “Zone Diet”-based, as well as I’m currently investigating the validity behind the “Eat Right for Your Blood Type” diet. On a personal note, the following is my pre-workout “cocktail” and it works like a charm. . . for me. I usually have a whole-food breakfast in the morning and this “cocktail” 2-3 hours later. (It may be a little “advanced” for high school kids, but for the more advanced trainee (such as yourself or the fighters you deal with) I think it’s great.

20-30 minutes prior to workout
16oz. water
1 Fudge-graham Zone bar
3-4 grams L-Tyrosine
*1 Vivarin (200mg.)

*If you’re sensitive to caffeine, omit the Vivarin.

During Workout: I have my guys drinking anywhere from 10-30grams of glutamine in diluted Gatorade during their workout. The amount depends on the athlete’s bodyweight, training level, goal and sport. This drink worked incredibly well for my football players who were training 2X a day over the summer and didn’t want to lose weight. If you’re concerned with gaining weight, mix the glutamine in water. This gets rid of the extra calories and sugar in the Gatorade.

Post-workout: I still favor “liquid nutrition” immediately after your workout. I used to load up on carbs with a moderate amount of fast-acting protein (whey). I feel that there are 3 main factors that determine how much carbs you should consume post-workout. A lot of people overlook these factors. They are:

How much carbs did you consume in your meals previous to the workout? (If you had pancakes, fruit and orange juice before your workout, you don’t need as many carbs in your post-workout drink.)
Did you consume glutamine during your workout? (When consuming glutamine during your workout, you don’t need as much carbs post-workout to replenish glycogen levels.)
What kind of workout did you perform? (You don’t need as many carbs in your post-workout shake after performing a max strength workout. On the other hand, if you performed a tremendous amount of sets, reps, exercises, etc., you need more carbs in your shake.)
So, if you decide to give my pre-workout & during-the-workout “cocktails” a try, I would recommend the new formula of Myoplex Deluxe for your post-workout shake. I’ve had great success with this shake and so have many of my athletes. It contains 340 calories, 53grams of protein, 28grams of carbs, 4.5grams of fat, over 12grams of a blend of glutamine, glutamine peptides, glutamic acid and a boatload of quality amino acids. Ever since I’ve gone away from the high-carb post-workout shake, I don’t feel like passing out and taking a nap after I drink it. This is a nice treat considering I have to go to work after I workout. I think many people with jobs will appreciate the fact that there is now a way to have a quality post-workout shake without it “knocking you out” after consuming it. Again, I am a big fan of things that actually work “in the real world”, not just bodybuilding fantasy land!

I’m officially sick of writing. I think you gave me carpal tunnel syndrome with that long question. It’s time to go find an easy question to answer.

Joe D.
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Old 08-02-2006, 08:39 PM   #7 (permalink)

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Stew nice read thanks.
i am actually starting the wsfsb I this week.
i also had some thoughts on this article, and in general on increasing ko. as he said and as in the book science and pract of strength training, the motor units must be activated. remmber the phenonmenom of doing a heavy set for a double or triple, then immediately doing a drop set with a weight you can only do 5-8times, but the heavy set before loaded the mu so now you can do 10-12 of the lighter weight. this is the same principle.
so my thinking originally was load the bar and do a static contraction at 110-120% of 1rm, then immediatley get up and hit a mitt which is easier to have in the weight room than a punching bag. or you could do 85-95% of 1rm for 2-3 then hit a mitt. this was with bench, but i can see the refernece of using it with a fly machine as well. even including a heavy squat, walking lunge or leg press, as the rear leg is needed for the drive in a straight punch.

EDIT- my % were off
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Old 08-02-2006, 09:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTP
you should progressively add more weight to the bar each set, working up to your 5RM. So if you're 5RM on bench is 200lb then you might go:

150 x 5
160 x 5
175 x 5
185 x 5
200 x 5

or however you're most comfortable doing it, it's left open-ended so people can choose the way which best suits them.
What about the secondary lifts. It just says do 6-10 reps. Are you supposed to do all of those sets to failure?
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Old 08-02-2006, 10:00 PM   #9 (permalink)

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Originally Posted by Quagmire
What about the secondary lifts. It just says do 6-10 reps. Are you supposed to do all of those sets to failure?
no.
if you are lifting for strength it could be conuterproductive to train to failure
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Old 08-03-2006, 09:52 PM   #10 (permalink)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrine
no.
if you are lifting for strength it could be conuterproductive to train to failure
Agreed. Just lift to positive failure. Basically, your form deteriorates and you rack the weight leaving one rep "in the hole".

Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrine
Stew nice read thanks.
i am actually starting the wsfsb I this week.
i also had some thoughts on this article, and in general on increasing ko. as he said and as in the book science and pract of strength training, the motor units must be activated. remmber the phenonmenom of doing a heavy set for a double or triple, then immediately doing a drop set with a weight you can only do 5-8times, but the heavy set before loaded the mu so now you can do 10-12 of the lighter weight. this is the same principle.
so my thinking originally was load the bar and do a static contraction at 110-120% of 1rm, then immediatley get up and hit a mitt which is easier to have in the weight room than a punching bag. or you could do 85-95% of 1rm for 2-3 then hit a mitt. this was with bench, but i can see the refernece of using it with a fly machine as well. even including a heavy squat, walking lunge or leg press, as the rear leg is needed for the drive in a straight punch.

EDIT- my % were off
Actually, this post made me decide to go ahead and start WSFSB this week also. Of all the programs I've ever used, this template has given me the best gains, and since it works in 3 week cycles, I don't get bored with it. I'm actually going to be doing a modified version of his version 2. Version 2 is set up with sprint/plyo/mobility work and a strongman training day. Since, my goal is to knock my 3 mile time down (shooting for 18 min), I'm going to be doing distance running when it says to do the running workouts and also on the strongman day. I'd like to do the mobility and speed work, but it doesn't fit with my current goals.

Seems like you're thinking along the same lines as myself in regard to this punching power program. A mitt or thai pad would definitely be the way to go in a gym, especially since 99% don't have a heavy bag next to their bench press. I've never trained seriously using complexes like this, but have used them here and there in the past. It's a very noticeable feeling of improvement when you do a set of 3-5 heavy squats followed immediately by 10 jumps. I've also done plyometric pushups immediately after heavy bench presses, and the extra explosion was pretty dramatic.
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