[ENTROPY]

Originally Posted by Spoonman7

Speed bags are good for building up the deltoids, I tell you that from experience, a good 2 or 3 rounds will really help your delts. You feel it after you are done.

All training should be goal dependant, otherwise you're simply spinning your wheels.

Given this fact, if its muscular endurance or hypertrphy of deltoids you desire, the speed bag is not the best training implement.

This goal is better addressed with side raises and presses given that the result is measurable and just as importantly, you can stay ahead of the adaptory response, resulting in greater overall results.

[Madmick]

Originally Posted by ENTROPY

I was speaking with regard to the degree of internal rotation of the humerus exhibited during speed bag work which is better addressed with specific rotator strengthening movements.

Concerning hand-eye coordination and rhythm there is an obvious value, however it’s just my opinion that I prefer to address these by employing actions that mimic the specific biomechanics of the punch, as opposed to the “tricep extension like” action of speed bag punching.

With regard to speed however, it can be summarized as acceleration x distance which in the case of punching is addressed in two general ways:

(1) An improvement of the biomechanics of the specific punching action

(2) An improvement in the Central Nervous System expression.

Concerning method (1), the specific improvement of the biomechanics of most punching movements are simply not adequately addressed with respect to the biomechanics inherent in the speedbag punching motion. Also, the neural expression required to perform the speedbag punch is not a specific enough method for neural improvement.

Concerning method (2), the following methods are more efficient ways to improve speed expression with regard to nervous system activation:

* Low weight = Speed

* Moderate weight = speed strength/power

* Heavy weight = strength speed

* Max weight = Limit/max strength

One very important fact that has not been mention is that punching an individual is a weight bearing movement.

What’s the point of having super fast hands if when you tag your opponent, he barely feels it?! The implications are obvious; namely that a boxer not only requires speed, he more importantly requires “speed strength” which is derived from technique improvement, heavy bag work, weighted speed training, and max strength training. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, therefore one is required to improve all areas of his physical abilities with relation to boxing.

The facts are simple; specific goals require specific training, and specific training determines what biomechanical action you will improve. Your body can only improve an action that you have created the need and stimulus for it to improve. Unfortunately, punching alone does not specifically address speed strength and max strength sufficiently enough.

My primary concern that I have with pure speed training such as that which is exhibited with speed bag work is that when you punch an opponent with speed alone, unless you’ve developed the required power to accompany the speed, then your new found speed is rendered useless. As such, the ideal method for improving the neural pathways of the relevant punching movement would be to:

* Train the technique with the various traditional methods..

* Increase your speed strength by way of neural efficiency and (simultaneous) maximal motor unit recruitment

* Increase your max strength.

In order for your CNS to properly accommodate the task that it’s asked to perform (improve your punching in this case) your training needs to mimic the relevant motion in all three of the above aspects. The following are some of the techniques employed by some of the most reputable boxing gyms worldwide:

1 * You need to work your technique with specificity by way of shadow boxing in the mirror, and most importantly by direct coaching so as to monitor and adjust the efficiency of your technique.

2 * You need to work your speed with specificity by way of floor to ceiling bag work, training with weighted gloves with a focus on speed development, single arm dumbbell benching with an emphasis on speed, and medicine ball work.

3 * Lastly you need to work your power/strength exertion with specificity by performing heavy bag work, sparring with larger opponents and by performing one rep (single arm) max dumbell work along with max powercleans.

The goal is to increase functional punching speed that is not only lightening quick, but also exhibits power, which is a marriage of speed and strength. As such, the training methodology has to correspond with the specific punching action.

Yes, I agree, but as for training max speed: since power is a function of strength and speed, improving speed WILL improve power...the reason we don't train for speed is that research has strongly indicated that the capacity for improvement in speed isn't nearly as great as the capacity for improvement in max strength...but I don't think the former should be entirely ignored- of and in itself.

I like your alternatives, but none address the biomotor abilities in the same combination and in the same proportions as the speed bag. One more advantage of the bag is combining footwork (in patterned hops and the like) with the bag-hitting. I supposed I could do these in shadowboxing, but I usually have slightly different goals when I shadowbox.

I don't know the training regimens of most boxers, but I've never seen an instance of a world-class boxer with a regimen that didn't include a speed bag. I suppose when I see more champions deriding the speed bag as you have- as an anachronism- I will be more receptive to its dismissal.

But perhaps I will learn of this in the next response.

[ENTROPY]

Originally Posted by Madmick

Yes, I agree, but as for training max speed: since power is a function of strength and speed, improving speed WILL improve power.

Given the predictability, I’m of the opinion that the ideal method for improving speed is by addressing power exertion via max % output, and not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Madmick

...the reason we don't train for speed is that research has strongly indicated that the capacity for improvement in speed isn't nearly as great as the capacity for improvement in max strength.

..but I don't think the former should be entirely ignored- of and in itself.

I’m not familiar with the data you’re referring to, however I’d prefer to postulate that it has been empirically observed that max strength increases occur more predictably than increases in measurable speed.

That said; I would like to see a study supporting a direct comparison between a rate of speed increase vs rate of max strength increase in a large test group.

Originally Posted by Madmick

I like your alternatives, but none address the biomotor abilities in the same combination and in the same proportions as the speed bag.

I see your concern, however to be fair, the combination of derived properties is not as important as the specific properties that are gained.

The biomechanics and the neural specificity of a real punch compared to a speedbag punch differ significantly.

The jab, the straight right, the upper-cut and the hook, all share physically expressed properties that are not evident in the speedbag punch such has hip extention / trunk rotation, deriving power from the ground, etc…whereas the speedbag punch amounts to little more than an internal humerus rotation, coupled with a tricep extension; as such I’m not sold on the movement.

Originally Posted by Madmick

One more advantage of the bag is combining footwork (in patterned hops and the like) with the bag-hitting. I supposed I could do these in shadowboxing, but I usually have slightly different goals when I shadowbox.

I agree with the suggested benefits implied above.

Originally Posted by Madmick

I don't know the training regimens of most boxers, but I've never seen an instance of a world-class boxer with a regimen that didn't include a speed bag. I suppose when I see more champions deriding the speed bag as you have- as an anachronism- I will be more receptive to its dismissal.

But perhaps I will learn of this in the next response.

I have a personal acquaintance with Goody Petronelli and Emmanuel Steward and I can say with all assurance that the vast majority of boxing trainers have an elementary understanding of strength, speed and conditioning development.

Goody Petronelli has produced several world champs including the great Marvin Hagler, and he has personally expressed to me the overemphasis that many trainers place on speedbag work. My brother is trained by him and he does little, if any speedbag work.

[RizRan]

Since using the speedbag ive noticed a great deal in the snap of my punches. Ive been using it for the past 9 months and its helped me alot. Im a bit quicker and have more rhythm also

[ToughChick]

Since using the speed bag all that I have noticed is that I have gotten remarkably better.. at using the speed bag.

[Mr. Sinister]

Goody Petronelli has produced several world champs including the great Marvin Hagler, and he has personally expressed to me the overemphasis that many trainers place on speedbag work. My brother is trained by him and he does little, if any speedbag work.

Being in-training for Pro Boxing, I'm surprised I overlooked this discussion. Apologies.

However, to address this specific statement Entropy, I have video footage of Hagler doing round after round of speed-bag work.

But Mick has already stated the overall purposes that only vary slightly for speed-bag work than they do for other forms of Boxing plyometrics. It's not about singled-out improvements of hand-speed, hand-eye coordination, muscular endurance, or isolated muscular development. It's about developing all of these at the same time, at a full-speed full-punch pace. The guys who benefit most from structured speed-bag work are two types of fighters:

1) The volume puncher who punches 100+ times per round. Being forced to set a rythmic pace on the speed-bag, with consistent distribution of energy, moving the hands and feet at the same time, breathing at a set-pace that has variables throughout, helps them to facilitate their punch-output and rythm thereof in a live fight.

2) The big puncher who is slow. Usually these types of fighters have very little rythm, balance, and coordination, hence their lack of overall speed. Using the speed-bag helps them to develop confidence in out-putting more punches consistently, with fewer mistakes.

However, where MMA is concerned and standard gyms are concerned, I see a lot of things that detract from these more full benefits, that make your arguments against emphasis on speed-bag training particularly true. The main one being that they use a speed-bag that is set ONLY to move back and forth, it's on a hook where the joint that is in-motion can only go in two directions. Rendering 360 degree movement around the bag useless, so you're just standing there, still, pawing at it very fast.

My speed-bag, and the ones of Pro Boxers, tend to use a ball-joint that has full 360 degree rotation. This makes it a bit different. You have to accurately control the bags' movement with your punches. Which is true in a fight typically. You can dictate where your opponent moves if you know where to punch, and punch fast enough to effect his judgement and reasoning, giving you control of where he puts his head, his hands, etc. This is another benefit of well-structured speed-bag training. You have to move around it to keep it moving. The slightest slip in form and rythm will send it spinning in circles and you'll miss.

I can honestly say that up until late this year I never did any speed-bag training myself. But now that I use it routinely it has indeed lended to my abilities with hand-speed and smart punching, as well as rythm, timing, and energy output. But not by any means in a miraculous way that puts it above-and-beyond say, my double-end or heavy-bag.

[Urban]

I like my speed bag, but I rarely use it for circle punches. Using it for combinations really teaches me to make a smooth transition from one punch to the next. I have the speed bag bible and I think some of the ideas in there are good fun and of great benefit to an oaf like me.

[Mr. Sinister]

Since using the speed bag all that I have noticed is that I have gotten remarkably better.. at using the speed bag.

If that's the case I'd say your trainer isn't doing a very good job of showing you how to transition speed-bag progress to full-motion fighting. Not to be disrespectful of someone I don't know, but that's the only logical reason I can come up with that structured work on this apparatus hasn't benefitted other areas of your training. And it makes sense. When I was younger and still taught, I had some students who were EXCELLENT at training drills, and sucked at sparring. It never made sense to me, now I know I lacked certain skills to show them how training transitions to fighting. This is quite common among many a trainer.