Wrestlers who flee the guard are hypocrites!

Frodo · 08-21-2007, 12:51 AM

I knew this rule from wrestling, but I didn't know the explicit statement. From the official rules:

Quote:

Fleeing a hold occurs when the defending wrestler openly refuses contact in order to
prevent his opponent from executing or initiating a hold. ... The wrestler who refuses contact in Free Style and Greco-Roman wrestling or who gesticulates to simulate contact must be sanctioned as he is cheating and going against the spirit of wrestling.

http://www.fila-wrestling.com/images...e/wr230107.pdf

This applies from standing in wrestling, but in grappling it applies equally to the ground. The rules are different because while the bottom guy in wrestling wants to reverse to get back standing, in grappling you can still mount an effective offense from the guard. It seems like those who flee the guard are trying to justify some dishonorable way of winning to cover their own one dimensional game. I'm not saying all wrestlers are dishonorable, just the ones who use that strategy. And they should be ashamed.

Pulling guard is not even in the same league as this. I used to think it was, but I changed my mind. You can't attack by backing up, you can't place your opponent in danger of anything by stalling or backing away. OTOH pulling guard allows you to do all of that from a different position than standing. Equating the two is stupid. Now butt scooting and falling to guard generally do not give you any advantages, and should be considered dishonorable as well.

Pulling guard is different and should not be seen as dishonorable. It could be considered conceding the takedown and award points to the other guy. Or it could be considered a change and more neutral and worth no points to anyone. I don't know which yet. I don't think pulling guard should give you points tho (like some tournaments). That just leads to very bad situations which could award the less dominate person IMHO. But this is nothing like backing up or butt scooting. Pulling guard could still be in the spirit of wrestling, while backing up or butt scooting definitely are against the spirit of the sport!!!

**Mirada** · 08-21-2007, 12:55 AM

Pulling guard has always been an aggressive strategy. The only people who complain are the ones who don't know how to pass.

Max Shane · 08-21-2007, 01:25 AM

Hey, don't let the guy stand up then. It's not like it's exactly easy to stand up from guard, or hard to keep them on their backs.

GuardGame · 08-21-2007, 01:49 AM

I for one, like to PASS guard, and will trade takedowns.

hazeOne · 08-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Frodo,

I understand what you are saying, but I tend to disagree.

I think if any grappler stands up from his oppenents guard OR pulls guard they are simply just changing the plane/playing field to their advantage or to the plane that most suites their abilities.

A wreslters best pass might be a double leg where he can end up in side mount, so if he takes a guy down and ends up in guard....well then get back up and try again. All he is doing is shifting the fight to the plane that most suits his style and that is standing.

Now if BJJ guys best plane is vertical then he does not engage in a take down contest (much like the wrestler doesn't engage in a guard contest) and he simply pulls guard to bring the fight to his plane. Knowing that he is not going to be successful on his feet me must do something to put him in a postion to win the fight with his abilities and thats on his back. On his back he feels he can sweep, submit and put himself in a more dominant position...

..much like the wrestler feels he can be in a more dominant position when standing.

Its the nature of the beast....not dishonorable one bit.

Lapu-Lapu · 08-21-2007, 09:30 AM

I don't think its more like fleeing in wrestling, its more like optional start from ref's position. Why work to the other person's advantage? If I know I can take a person down to side mount, or better position, rather than messing around in their guard, where they want me to be, why shouldn't I?

RadBoy · 08-21-2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazeOne

Frodo,

I understand what you are saying, but I tend to disagree.

I think if any grappler stands up from his oppenents guard OR pulls guard they are simply just changing the plane/playing field to their advantage or to the plane that most suites their abilities.

A wreslters best pass might be a double leg where he can end up in side mount, so if he takes a guy down and ends up in guard....well then get back up and try again. All he is doing is shifting the fight to the plane that most suits his style and that is standing.

Now if BJJ guys best plane is vertical then he does not engage in a take down contest (much like the wrestler doesn't engage in a guard contest) and he simply pulls guard to bring the fight to his plane. Knowing that he is not going to be successful on his feet me must do something to put him in a postion to win the fight with his abilities and thats on his back. On his back he feels he can sweep, submit and put himself in a more dominant position...

..much like the wrestler feels he can be in a more dominant position when standing.

Its the nature of the beast....not dishonorable one bit.

The difference here is the wrestler who stands up out of guard and actively moves away is refusing to engage.. Even the buttscooter is moving forward to engage and when you pull or jump guard you are engaging.

Ballz_Onya_Chin · 04:24 PM

I wrestled before BJJ and the guard was something I just wasn't prepared for. My first tourney when someone pulled guard I just thought it was a puss move. Then I practiced the guard exclusively in order to make my passing game the best part of my arsenal. Even though it still isn't all there yet, I feel like I won't get abused from the guard like I did initially.

That being said, it still kind of irks me when people pull guard.

juanlawnmower · 08-21-2007, 10:26 AM

What you're talking about, and it goes both ways between grappling and wrestling rulesets, is STALLING.

It's obviously discouraged in both, but in grappling it's common for former wrestlers to try to stall and win on takedowns. It's unfortunate, and being a former wrestler I hate the rap wrestlers get for doing it. I actually like to work off my back.

Frodo · 08-21-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazeOne

Frodo,

I understand what you are saying, but I tend to disagree.

I think if any grappler stands up from his oppenents guard OR pulls guard they are simply just changing the plane/playing field to their advantage or to the plane that most suites their abilities.

A wreslters best pass might be a double leg where he can end up in side mount, so if he takes a guy down and ends up in guard....well then get back up and try again. All he is doing is shifting the fight to the plane that most suits his style and that is standing.

Now if BJJ guys best plane is vertical then he does not engage in a take down contest (much like the wrestler doesn't engage in a guard contest) and he simply pulls guard to bring the fight to his plane. Knowing that he is not going to be successful on his feet me must do something to put him in a postion to win the fight with his abilities and thats on his back. On his back he feels he can sweep, submit and put himself in a more dominant position...

..much like the wrestler feels he can be in a more dominant position when standing.

Its the nature of the beast....not dishonorable one bit.

Well you are wrong. That wrestler isn't forcing his opponent into his plane of the fight, he is just moving there by backing away. Pulling guard actively forces your opponent to do groundwork if you do it correctly. Butt scooting, falling to guard, stalling in guard, and fleeing the guard do not move your opponent into the standing phase. That's why it is stupid. If you want someone to fight standing, force them there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapu-Lapu

I don't think its more like fleeing in wrestling, its more like optional start from ref's position. Why work to the other person's advantage? If I know I can take a person down to side mount, or better position, rather than messing around in their guard, where they want me to be, why shouldn't I?

When you do that in wrestling, you improve your opponent's position. You don't want to be on bottom in wrestling. You also give up a point. Fleeing the guard in grappling should be a penalty point, but some refs don't call it so it is basically unpenalized.

But I believe that strategy in wrestling is also very bad. It is a strategy of winning without trying for a pin. You don't think that's wrong?