Wing Chun Sticky Hands and Judo Grip Fighting

Balefire · 06-14-2007, 10:57 PM

I took wing chun for a few years about four or five years ago, and I recently just started taking judo, and I noticed an interesting crossover.

During randori I decided to try to stop my partner from getting the grip they wanted and I noticed that it was just like the wing chun sticky hands exercise, and that because of my past experience, I was pretty good at it. Now my judo is still very poor, so I didn't really know how to take advantage of the fact that my opponent couldn't get a good grip, but I thought it was interesting.

Being that this is a grappling forum, I assume not everyone is familiar with sticky hands, so here's an illustration:

You have your hands like in the picture to start, then roll them around each other in different ways while keeping your hands (or wrists or forearms) "stuck" to each other and try to get a dominant position and attack. It is often disparaged because someone with a boxing stance will simply not want to play your game, and you can't really force them to stay in the sticky hands range. Rather than being a range to stay in, it seems valuable as a way to transition from striking range to the clinch and ensure that you get the grips you want.

As I learn what grips I like in judo (right now I only really know the basic grip), I feel like all the time spent doing sticky hands back in my wing chun days might actually be pretty handy.

That's all. Just thought it was interesting how wing chun training was actually somewhat applicable to judo of all things.

The Jake · 06-14-2007, 11:05 PM

They call it grip fighting in wrestling too....

- J.

Balefire · 06-14-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jake

They call it grip fighting in wrestling too....

- J.

I guess I should have just said grip fighting. The only reason I said judo is that my personal experience was related to wing chun and judo. I'm sure someone coming from a muay thai background, for example, and starting wrestling would find that they already new a little about control in the clinch, but that wasn't my specific experience.

I guess this thread is kind of pointless without drawing any conclusions from the experience, so I will conclude that during my wing chun training, it would have been valuable to learn some throws or strikes from within the clinch as we already knew how to grip fight, and clinching seems to be the natural progression, yet we didn't go there very often.

Edit: I guess it looks a little silly that I begin every paragraph with "I guess," I guess.

TheCuttlefish · 06-14-2007, 11:25 PM

I did a little JKD and am familiar with Chi Sao.

The problem I have with this is that when people clinch they use a lot of strong forward movements while WC traps tend to rely on lateral movement to pull you off line. Also these moves only work on the arms where as techniques like say and arm drag have the strength to move the whole upper body.

However, philosophically, keeping contact with your opponents limbs so that you can feel their movement rather than having to look at them is a good idea. The window for this is pretty small though I don't do judo specificly (nogi sub wrestling).

I'm actualy a little curious and plan on working some into my randori.

QingTian · 06-15-2007, 03:25 AM

from what I understand chi sao isn't for gripping, but more to train your punch reflexes and get past defenses. you won't often have that sort of contact in judo gripping. I'm sure some of it will help you cross over though, but it's not all the same.

hayliks · 06-15-2007, 04:16 AM

wing chun is gay and it sucks, i'm sorry you wasted any time trying to learn it....

Darkslide632 · 06-15-2007, 05:39 AM

I actually had a friend who taught me how to practice chi sao with him, and while I have no use for wing chun in general, I was pretty impressed with what I was able to do after practicing chi sao after a while. There were several times later on that I blocked punches that I never even saw coming, which was pretty interesting. I can see how it might have an effect on grip fighting, though I have never applied it to my Judo... which I am reasonably proficient at.

Balefire · 06-15-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCuttlefish

I did a little JKD and am familiar with Chi Sao.

However, philosophically, keeping contact with your opponents limbs so that you can feel their movement rather than having to look at them is a good idea. The window for this is pretty small though I don't do judo specificly (nogi sub wrestling).

This is what I was talking about. I wasn't saying that chi sao is the same as grip fighting or that it was meant for grip fighting, just that I found the principles of keeping in contact to feel and react to the opponent to be helpful. Obviously I'm talking about the time before actual grips are established, as once you have a real grip, it's easy to stay in contact with your opponent.

If you've done chi sao before, and do some sort of grappling now, you might find it interesting to try and throw a little chi sao in before solid grips are established, if only for the sake of trying something new. If you haven't done chi sao before, then this thread is probably pretty meaningless as it's not really worth practicing separately from your grappling.

I just found it interesting and thought I'd share with those who might have a similar background.

smellycrimplock · 06-15-2007, 07:04 AM

Go away hayliks. No one is interested in what you're saying.
Chi sao can be very beneficial for grappling.. apart from being able to feel where your opponent is going and also great for breaking grips it is good for initiating dirty boxing. Something that does well in MMA.
Apart from that, chi sao is good when you are in guard. Try it out sometime Balefire. It wont help you submit people directly, but it will open them up for a strike or two... which might just be the distraction you need to work a sub.
Although, if you are pulling guard against someone who isn't as proficient on the ground (or with sticking hands), you can use the give and take of pressure to manipulate the person on top into forcing themselves down into you and into a side guillotine.
Sorry I can't really describe it well... and don't have any diagrams or whatever... but try a few things out.
When you find something new that works that most people think , "is gay and it sucks" then you have an ace up your sleeve.

Personally I like using sticking hands (when it can be applied).. if your base is stable while you are using it, it can be effective. It can be used well on boxers who aren't used to that kind of treatment.

Good luck.

It's helped me.

PhxJudoJujitsu · 06-15-2007, 09:43 AM

There is some similarities between the two