We need a judo thread. - Page 188

Darkslide632 · 07-01-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doughbelly

No. I'm not judging the clip based on anything. I'm not judging the clip at all. Did you read something written by me about the actual merits of Nakamura's technique in the clip? I don't think so. At least not till this post.

I did respond to the elements of your posts where you made declarative statements that aren't necessarily true at all. It is not necessary to have your head on the same side as your reaping leg. It is not necessary to have uke shift his weight toward to reaped leg. It is still possible to finish as a driving o-uchi by grabbing the pant leg anywhere. Even behind the thigh is enough. This is a very powerful contest variation if you have a good, low entries.

I did ask you to look at that o uchi again to see if you really understood it. I was trying to be a nice guy because I think other people missed it, too. You want to know what I think did happen? Nakamura missed his transition to uchi mata. EVERYTHING about that clip, including all the clinch, the hopping, the rotation AND what happens after they hit the ground makes more sense.

Your letting yourself lock into one mode of thinking. Why, in your mind, does o-uchi lead into harai or uchi mata? Uchi mata and harai entries can lead into o uchi.

Whether or not you are judging the technical elements of Nakamura's technique, you ARE basing your opinion on what you understand, not what is actually happening. That is a judgment, a critical opinion.That is also the difference between being objective and subjective. You are letting your knowledge of Judo influence your opinion because you think you understand what was SUPPOSED to happen, or what Nakamura MIGHT have been doing. I'm looking at the video from an objective standpoint based of the criteria set by Yeahbee, which was that it was a "sweet ouchi gari." It most certainly does not. If I want to get subjective, then yeah, I could talk a while on it... but that was not what we were discussing. We were discussing - or *I* was discussing - the merits of the "ouchi gari" in that video.

It is NOT necessary to put your head on the side that you are reaping. It is, however, extremely helpful when learning to put uke's weight onto the leg that is being reaped. If you would like to believe that you can reap a leg that has no weight on it, that is your decision. I am telling you that you are wrong. Whether or not you want to believe me is your own choice.

Now, what we have managed to run into is the difference between an effective competitive technique - which a driving ouchi gari can most certainly be - and the classical definition of the philosophy behind the concept of a reap. No weight on the leg may still be effective, but that does not mean that it means the classical definition for a reap. As soon as we start disregarding the core techniques and the priciples behind them and start giving way to "It's effective, so it's good" things become muddied and we will eventually start to lose Kodokan Judo to bastardized hybrid theories. There needs to be some standard from which techniques are measured against, and those are the classic Kodokan techniques. Your mistake here is that while YOU might be knowledgeable to understand the variations of techniques, there are others who may take your word at face value and thus you are weakening the fundamental concepts behind techniques such as ouchi gari. Once again, you cannot REAP a leg that has no weight on it. You cannot. The fact that there is no weight on the leg is in direct opposition to the concept of a reap. That does not mean you can't knock someone down, but it is absolutely NOT a reap.

You also make some very big assumptions about the way my mind works, that, or you enjoy trying to twist people's words to suit your own needs. Ouchi gari leads exceptionally well into harai goshi and/or uchi mata. At no point did I say that the opposite is not true... of course I didn't mention the countless other combinations in Judo either, but I am reasonably sure that my failure to do so did not somehow define my entire thought process concerning Judo.

Why does ouchi gari lead into harai goshi and uchi mata well? For a number of reasons. The first being that they are opposites in the direction of kuzushi. Thus if I attack with ouchi gari and you defend, you are defending against a backwards throw and very often that leads to people being off balance to their front and therefore are vulnerable to forward throws. The second is that ouchi gari and harai goshi/uchi mata are changing levels. Should I attack with ouchi gari, it is very low to the ground and thus my opponent's focus is very low to the ground. If I follow up with, say, sasae tsurikomi ashi, I would have done well in changing the direction in which I was attacking, but the attack would still be at a very low level, where my opponent's focus already is. When, instead, I change both the direction AND the level at which I attack, my opponent is forced to change two different areas of focus, and thus it is more difficult. For example, ko uchi gari and ippon seoi nage. If I was able to also switch the rotational direction in which I am attacking, my opponent would be at even more of a disadvantage. For example, right side ko ouchi gari is a throw with kuzushi to uke's back, with a very low attack and a counter-clockwise rotation. Should that fail and I completely change directions to an eri-seoi nage variation, uke would not only have to swift his focus from being low to the ground, defending a backwards throw, but he would also have to shift to defend against a clockwise rotation.

PedroCassidinho · 07-01-2009, 05:51 PM

Only me, my coach and two senior blackbelts turned up for class tonight. It was great because after warm up the blackbelts got paired off and the coach spent teh full night with me refining my footwork and teaching me throws that suit my bodytype.

Dunno if this has happened to anybody else but I come from a boxing background and i had been slipping back to keeping my left foot forward all the time and it was leaving me open for foot sweeps and affecting my ability to throw. I spent a good half hour tonight getting my footwork and posture right and what a difference it made to my throws when
we started that. I have already been shown tonnes of throws but tonight my coach asked me what my 3 favourites were and worked with me until i had them nasty. I then spent the last half hour working pin counters. Really enjoyed it and can't wait to try out my new stuff on Friday.

I know theres probably nobody interested in all this but i dunno i just like rambling on about Judo on here. Gonna kick it up to 3 nights a week from next week.

Relakz · 07-01-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PedroCassidinho

Only me, my coach and two senior blackbelts turned up for class tonight. It was great because after warm up the blackbelts got paired off and the coach spent teh full night with me refining my footwork and teaching me throws that suit my bodytype.

Dunno if this has happened to anybody else but I come from a boxing background and i had been slipping back to keeping my left foot forward all the time and it was leaving me open for foot sweeps and affecting my ability to throw. I spent a good half hour tonight getting my footwork and posture right and what a difference it made to my throws when
we started that. I have already been shown tonnes of throws but tonight my coach asked me what my 3 favourites were and worked with me until i had them nasty. I then spent the last half hour working pin counters. Really enjoyed it and can't wait to try out my new stuff on Friday.

I know theres probably nobody interested in all this but i dunno i just like rambling on about Judo on here. Gonna kick it up to 3 nights a week from next week.

That sounds awesome. And I'm interested in your experience as I too am beginning Judo so I like hearing how others are experiencing it also.

Sounds like you are having fun, keep it up!

judomexican · 07-01-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by q mystic

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PedroCassidinho · 07-01-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sisk412

That sounds awesome. And I'm interested in your experience as I too am beginning Judo so I like hearing how others are experiencing it also.

Sounds like you are having fun, keep it up!

Yeah man, I had an Orange as a kid but it was mostly just messing around. This time i'm getting taught by some serious players and i'm loving it, its only been since late febuary or early march and i couldn't imagine life without it now. Gonna go for a tournament in August and i can't wait cause even if i get smashed it will be fun and a great learning experience.

Throatpoker · 07-01-2009, 10:32 PM

Just got home from practice, damn, got my ass kicked HARDCORE tonight! Everyone in class was a heavyweight, except one of the brown belts who weighted about 140 or 150 lbs. I was the heaviest at 210, and that guy threw me around the mat for two hours straight (he wanted to practice a few things, so he asked me to "help" him out). The ownage was a thing of beauty, lmao.

Darkslide632 · 07-01-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PedroCassidinho

Only me, my coach and two senior blackbelts turned up for class tonight. It was great because after warm up the blackbelts got paired off and the coach spent teh full night with me refining my footwork and teaching me throws that suit my bodytype.

Dunno if this has happened to anybody else but I come from a boxing background and i had been slipping back to keeping my left foot forward all the time and it was leaving me open for foot sweeps and affecting my ability to throw. I spent a good half hour tonight getting my footwork and posture right and what a difference it made to my throws when
we started that. I have already been shown tonnes of throws but tonight my coach asked me what my 3 favourites were and worked with me until i had them nasty. I then spent the last half hour working pin counters. Really enjoyed it and can't wait to try out my new stuff on Friday.

I know theres probably nobody interested in all this but i dunno i just like rambling on about Judo on here. Gonna kick it up to 3 nights a week from next week.

There are lots of good reasons for remaining squared up to your opponent and it is something I try to impress upon my students. Keeping yourself from being open to foot sweeps is one thing, but the increased mobility, IMO is more important.

Some very good instructors, including Jimmy Pedro, actually suggest that you keep a staggered stance, with one foot forward. I have some students who prefer to fight in this manner and it CAN work... obviously, of Pedro wouldn't be teaching it. The key is that, regardless of whether or not you have a staggered stance, you have to keep your HIPS square to your opponent. This still allows you some mobility.

Obviously your instructor and I are of the like mind and prefer a more squared off stance while learning Judo, but don't completely write off staggered stances. There are obvious trade-offs, such as your diminished ability to turn in the direction of the forward leg as compared to the rear leg... but there are also advantages to the stance, including less rotation and thus faster entries when moving in the opposite direction of your forward leg. As a beginner, I most definitely suggest a squared up stance, but as you advance, you may at some point find some validity to the staggered stance.

PedroCassidinho · 07-01-2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkslide632

There are lots of good reasons for remaining squared up to your opponent and it is something I try to impress upon my students. Keeping yourself from being open to foot sweeps is one thing, but the increased mobility, IMO is more important.

Some very good instructors, including Jimmy Pedro, actually suggest that you keep a staggered stance, with one foot forward. I have some students who prefer to fight in this manner and it CAN work... obviously, of Pedro wouldn't be teaching it. The key is that, regardless of whether or not you have a staggered stance, you have to keep your HIPS square to your opponent. This still allows you some mobility.

Obviously your instructor and I are of the like mind and prefer a more squared off stance while learning Judo, but don't completely write off staggered stances. There are obvious trade-offs, such as your diminished ability to turn in the direction of the forward leg as compared to the rear leg... but there are also advantages to the stance, including less rotation and thus faster entries when moving in the opposite direction of your forward leg. As a beginner, I most definitely suggest a squared up stance, but as you advance, you may at some point find some validity to the staggered stance.

Yeah he said as time goes on he will open me up to other things regarding my footwork. Basically, what he was trying to do with me tonight is spend some time with me since nobody else was there and give me a small arsenal of effective moves that i can use and rely on for now. Its generally some of teh medium grades who have been showing me stuff but tonight my sensei was saying I picked up the stuff he was showing me pretty well and he is gonna show a bigger interest in my development now as I have been turning up every class and getting on with it etc. When the other guys have been showing me they have been jumping from throw to throw but its been all too fast and i never really got them, i was doing kinda half hearted retarded versions of them whilst missing vital components like driving with a certain arm while i trip or getting my grip positioning correct. Tonight it was alot better as I went threw 3 throws that iv been catching people with occasionally and worked on getting the form tight.

I am one of the bigger guys in the gym and have threw a lot of people, even some of the higher levels (club level higher grades tho, not competition level higher grades) just with my strength and weight but I have also been getting caught by a lot of smaller guys with foot-sweeps and stuff and have been coming into throws wrong and falling to the ground myself as i try and overpower them and they escape. I know I am a beginner and this is natural but it was cool how i got to drill these throws like 40 times tonight, until i could really hit them good. For example, I got shown a really cool counter tonight where i block with my knees then bend them down as they twist in for something then i kinda squat and lift my opponent right off the ground and slam them whilst spinning in the air so they hit the ground first. it took a good few attempts to get the part where i bend my knees and pick them right off the floor but i got it right after a few goes and was soon picking a 260 pound guy up in the air and slamming him with this. (onto a crash-mat in practise not in Randori). The 3 guys that were in and a couple ex judoka watching from the sidelines were impressed with my strength and it made me leave the gym feeling great.

Again sorry for rambling but I am pretty excited by my sudden progress am really looking forward to becoming a badass Judoka.

Dannicus · 07-02-2009, 10:30 PM

I'm trying to do a bit of research on the origins of Kosen Judo. I have read in other forums that Kosen Judo doesn't really exist as it's own style, and that it has been debated time and time again. I did some searching online, couldn't find anything to substantiate that statement. I'm wondering if you Judo guys could point me in the right direction on finding information about Kosen, it's practice or the lack there of, thanks.

Darkslide632 · 07-02-2009, 10:41 PM

Traditionalists would like to tell you that Kosen was not "it's own form" and technically they are correct. All Kosen means, I believe, is university. I believe, however, that calling it "Kosen Judo" makes it easy to distinguish what it is that you are talking about, and what it is you are talking about is simply newaza focused Judo.

If you're looking for some lost underground art, you're going to be disappointed. The "Kosen Judo" you speak of is, in all honesty, simply Judo. The only difference is that the focus was more on newaza.

There is actually going to be a Judo Newaza tournament at the The PanAmerican Masters tournament this November in Mass.

http://sites.google.com/site/massach...er_-_Rev_0.doc

I am looking forward to checking it out.