strength in womens grappling

[Mcrow]

Originally Posted by brollikk

This is truth.

In wrestling, the weight advantage is MUCH more noticeable than BJJ.

And yes when speaking about "equal" skill, then the weight advantage will show.

However, when the skill levels of the practitioners are like white/blue belt level in bjj, it is REALLY hard for me to take it seriously because there is so much to grow. (similar to someone on JV doing the techniques semi-wrong and complaining about size)

Yes, that's true.

Females can develope skill as well as anyone but they'll always be handicaped by not having the same strength/weight ratio of a male.

This is pretty evidant in real life. My wife and I are around the same height but I can literally lift 4x more than she can. She struggles picking up a 40 pound box, I can pick up two no problem. It's just nature and inspite of what a woman does in the weight room they are almost certainly going to be weaker than males. They do not have enough testosterone to build a signiicant amount of muscle in order to increase weight/strength ratio. Their bodies are geared toward holding on to fat in order to bear children, ours is more geared to protect and fight.

[Hillary]

The actual strength capability, if it can be mildly quantifiable, is as Mcrow so graciously reminded us: 145 pound guy =/= 145 pound girl as far as muscle composition. I don't really need to touch on that part.

However, *how* women use the strength we have is also interesting and needs to be touched on. It explains why little male grapplers are still not quite comparable to female grapplers. I'm not going to go on feminist babble, but I will mention some gender differences that everyone knows but know one really thinks about.

Men are taught to be boisterous, aggressive, courageous etc. from a young age. They help dad build things, play sports or games with other kids, and use their bodies as tools very young. This allows them to develop a very instinctive sense of using their bodies effectively because they learn naturally. In many male sports, an "attack" gameplay is the norm: movements that involve leaving one's space and aggressively confronting an object or another player. Women, however, are gracefully emphasized. Almost no girls are put into contact sports; volleyball, soccer, gymnastics are common. These all teach grace, movement within a bounded area, and reacting to intrusions in that space.

When you watch women in combat sports, there is a similar pattern that emerges. When men start Jiu Jitsu, they are familiarized with the idea of combat their entire lives from being males and are generally pretty stoked about it. They really want to be fighters. They'll not know one bit what a guard pass is but they will flop, flail, and attack as best they can. They'll be generally aggressive about the learning process itself and will decide their own style of game down the line. Women are almost all apprehensive at first. I'll jump on a 2000 pound animal that's never had a human on its back with no fear, but I know I was terrified the first time I did BJJ. They're out of their element, almost none have ever done anything full contact before (most girls don't "wrassle" with dad or friends, either). Their Jiu Jitsu, initially, is often more reserved, unsure of goals or objectives (many don't have the UFC/MMA familiarity with even seeing the ground movements like many men today do), and are more reactive to movements that invade their space rather than attack outside it. Part of this has to do with our disadvantage of effect use of our body as a whole: We are stronger the more compact we are, and reaching outside this space leaves us exposed and vulnerable.

As we're learning BJJ, girls understand--at least subconsciously--that what we're doing isn't "normal" for girls. We kind of compensate by emphasizing the technical aspect of Jiu Jitsu, which can be manipulated to appear graceful and thus socially okay for a girl to do. Girls are slightly more naturally flexible (the majority of the difference is early emphasis of stretching in female exercise) and so we end up doing very flexible, flowing games that react to the aggressive male attacks that we encounter in the gym. We become sneaky, we learn to be quick and agile, to move around you rather than through you.

Tangent: That ISN'T to say women are more technical, or that the game produced is more technical. I hate that phrase, actually. Who's to say that a black belt doing berimbolo and tornado and rolling around on their head is more "technical" than the person who does the most basic scissor sweep? If both the techniques were effective in their objective, they are technical. Just because something is simple, does not mean it is not technical.

Because women rarely train with other women, quite often our reactive game works well for us. We defend all the time; men can't stand 'losing' to girls, so most of our rolls are defense rather than expansion. I have seen MANY female students (and I have done this myself) abandon certain techniques in the gym because they were simply not effective against big guys. If you don't have female training partners, like me, you end up with parts of your game (that could be vital against equally sized opponents) given up on due to frustration.

This can lead to a lapse in a girl's offensive Jiu Jitsu. When men try to "not use strength," it's a catastrophe. Don't worry boys, it's not your fault, it's just impossible for you to roll like a female would. Even if you're trying to "not use strength" (stupid idea to begin with), your body shape, size, and weight is a challenge in itself. When we run into situations where we're finally with someone going balls to the wall to beat us, we're confused and unprepared. The more you compete and do Jiu Jitsu, the more you can taper your training and prepare yourself, but I don't know a girl in BJJ that didn't say her first tournament was a shock. Men are used to aggressive rolls, winning some and losing some, and have a much easier time of it.

That being said, I think the "technique beats strength all the time" boolsheet that is fed to women as a BJJ pitch is absurd. Women are taught that "if you just focus on technique, technique, technique, it'll all work out." It also implies that strength and technique are mutually exclusive, as if strength is a bad thing. If strength was such a bad thing or not important we wouldn't have damn near every one of our top athletes looking like fitness models and doing S&C daily/weekly. Technique is the effective and efficient use of strength as much as an armbar is. If I can use my shoulder and weight distribution in a way that I can hold down a 190 pound brown belt, I'd consider that some pretty damn technical shoulder pressure. Women think they're aren't as strong, or that they'll never be able to match their male partner's strength, so they don't even attempt to access their own potential.

[stile0]

I try not to muscle things with girls, but I have no problem forcing my hips down and using body mechanics to control. Outside of competition training would this be the best method to help them and myself learn?

[M3DI3VAL]

Originally Posted by Hillary

Women, however, are gracefully emphasized. Almost no girls are put into contact sports; volleyball, soccer, gymnastics are common. These all teach grace, movement within a bounded area, and reacting to intrusions in that space.

with all the BJJ dads out there sticking their daughters into bjj classes as soon as they can walk, do you think this will make a big difference in how well woman can do versus men in the near future?

[RAWilliams]

Originally Posted by Hillary

When we run into situations where we're finally with someone going balls to the wall to beat us, we're confused and unprepared. The more you compete and do Jiu Jitsu, the more you can taper your training and prepare yourself, but I don't know a girl in BJJ that didn't say her first tournament was a shock. Men are used to aggressive rolls, winning some and losing some, and have a much easier time of it.

Ha ha... you've now met one. Then again, people tell me I'm only female from the skull outward.

I giggled all the way through my first BJJ competition (which I was totally unprepared for) except when I was actively being choked.

For a variety of reasons I'm used to having serious force used against me, so that part wasn't a shock. If anything, there was less force and pain than I expected. But I'm used to injuries or at least serious trouble resulting from using that amount of physical violence between human beings. It doesn't happen so much in a BJJ tournament, because of the mats and the way the rules are set up. So it's possible to go all out and really toss each other around without worrying about injuries.

Naturally, it felt like I was getting away with something. It still does, actually. Not that I've been doing it for long, or particularly well. BJJ will never be a career for me, and I'm doing it solely for entertainment. But this is some of the most intense entertainment I've been able to reliably set up.

[Hillary]

You misunderstood. A shock as in, a much different experience than what they had in the gym. Either things were faster, lighter, easier, something. It just wasn't what they expected.

[devante]

Originally Posted by Hillary

You misunderstood. A shock as in, a much different experience than what they had in the gym. Either things were faster, lighter, easier, something. It just wasn't what they expected.

your post are more similar to what i meant, guys are used to having to deal with a bigger stronger person attacking imposing their physical adv; an while i am not a great or good grappler i have alot of experience of being the smaller weaker male and having people exploit that or try to. Obviously my tech is nowhere near great; but i am at least prepared for that experience cus its one you come across many times as a guy, if not from well schooled guys who maxixmize a strength adv. Then you have new guys who just try to maul you, or big guys who impose themselves or guys of equal skill or maybe a little below who will use strength to work through tough spots and so on.

whereas most guys try to not use as much strength or try to work on things when facing a woman; so when a woman faces a legitimately strong and big and aggressive woman it may cause her prob cause she isn't used to someone actively using their strength in that manner.

example a girl i know was a power lifter and did alot of rodeo events (she was a farm girl), ridiculously strong had wrestled for maybe a year; when she grappled some girls i know blues- submission wrestler types etc, they said it was shocking how aggressive and physically powerful she was. An all these wmen regularly worked out with men; but seemed troubled with this girls physicality and size/physical presence/strength. Not saying they didn't tap her or couldn't sweep her but they all commented repeatedly how much of a problem she gave them based on pure physicality; they had all dealt with better grapplers and wrestlers, but were saying that he strength was just ridiculous...shocking.. Another girl i know who had an on/off grappling b/g but was training strongwoman training, got the same sort of feedback when she grappled some women i knew, all of which were way way better than her.

[gannas]

Originally Posted by brollikk

It is the SAME for both genders.


2 people of equal strength... the one with better technique will win.

If you fight someone stronger, you need cleaner/better technique to win.

Oh, and the thing that people OFTEN overlook: Technique has a HUGE ceiling.

If you aren't rolling like Rafael Mendes, then your technique probably CAN get a lot better. Even if you are a black belt, there is so much you can improve on.

The people who complain the most about this, have poor fundamental movements from most guard positions.

Ofcourse it matters for both genders but more so if its a female vs a larger stronger male.

[M3DI3VAL]

if you are a guy and go hard on a girl (no pun), then other dudes see you and think you are being a dick and want to roll with you to show you the proper way to roll with a girl (so basically they want to roll hard with you to teach you a lesson). so dudes are kind of F'd either way

[FatherSauce]

I hurt a lady's neck by accident and that has made me real hesitant to put a lot of effort out when I do end up rolling with them.

Am I the only one that has a hard time in general rolling with women? I constantly feel the don't hurt her and don't touch there bells going off in my head.