[Systemanoob]

Originally Posted by PhillyD45

Why are so many BJJ guys so down on catch wrestlers? It hurts my feelings

Maybe because Sakuraba destroyed the founders of their "sacred" art?

[knoxpk]

Voided,
Well written posts on your thoughts.

Do what you WANT to train and that is fun to you and if you have good instruction and some ability you will be good at it.

Same with all the full contact grappling sports.

[el_cazador]

Originally Posted by Voided_Warranty

However, regarding Tony Cecchine...hear alot of bad things about him. While it does seem he knows a little bit about catch wrestling...his depth of knowledge, according to people such as Karl Gotch, isn't all that impressive.

and here is a bit of a blog/article from our friends at scientific wrestling regarding tony cecchine.

Matt Furey & Tony Cecchine: Catch Wrestlings Newest Crisis of Confidence

So Gotch says he's no good, yet Lou Thesz endorsed him? I've heard it from the mouths of a few high level BJJers who rolled with Tony when he was healthy enough to, that he could have given many top grapplers hell on the mat. One particular quote I read that stands out is "Pretty amazing skill for a fraud" - I believe that was Shawn Chitwood, who also rolled live with Tony.

Jake Shannon at SW is a scumbag. Sure, he's trying to promote Catch, but he also hurt it by what he did to Tony C. Something to ponder here - Jake Shannon will, for $900.00 and a few weekends of training, certify anyone as a catch wrestler. Pretty good money grab if you ask me. Cecchine has certified 5 students in 10 years. How bad does it look for Catch when a Jake Shannon certified grappler gets mauled by a BJJ rookie? Jake has done well for himself by trying to undermine Tony C's credentials, but has hurt Catch Wrestling as a whole.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by Systemanoob

Maybe because Sakuraba destroyed the founders of their "sacred" art?

Sakuraba destroyed Helio, Carlos, and Maeda?

[Voided_Warranty]

Originally Posted by el_cazador

So Gotch says he's no good, yet Lou Thesz endorsed him? I've heard it from the mouths of a few high level BJJers who rolled with Tony when he was healthy enough to, that he could have given many top grapplers hell on the mat. One particular quote I read that stands out is "Pretty amazing skill for a fraud" - I believe that was Shawn Chitwood, who also rolled live with Tony.

Jake Shannon at SW is a scumbag. Sure, he's trying to promote Catch, but he also hurt it by what he did to Tony C. Something to ponder here - Jake Shannon will, for $900.00 and a few weekends of training, certify anyone as a catch wrestler. Pretty good money grab if you ask me. Cecchine has certified 5 students in 10 years. How bad does it look for Catch when a Jake Shannon certified grappler gets mauled by a BJJ rookie? Jake has done well for himself by trying to undermine Tony C's credentials, but has hurt Catch Wrestling as a whole.

I understand what you mean about how it's kind of ironic how he's doing the SAME thing almost.

I mean, it was just a blog I found interesting. I don't really know what to believe when it comes to Tony, like, he does seem like he kind of knows what he's talking about, it's just, some people says he's a fraud, others say he's amazing.

I mean, wtf, honestly, the one thing I've noticed is that way too many self-proclaimed catch wrestlers (catch wrestling being an art with no formal ranking system) try to undermine their competition instead of celebrating the community as a whole. Just my view on it. and sorry, I didn't get a chance to read some of your responses. ...I'll reply later on after I read them.

And a bit of an update:
I have ordered some tapes, and have been trying to find a bunch of the old legit catch wrestling matches from the early 20th century, I've found a few...and have been studying them and have been free rolling a bit with some people who are interested in town in seeing how I'm doing this. They are some of my gym buddies at the gym I go to to train with and are mostly MMA guys who train and fight in the local promotion. I'll keep you updated.

[PhillyD45]

It's not just the catch wrestling that made Sakuraba win. It's also the fact that he is one of the toughest guys to step into a ring (the other I would say is Big Nog) and a really good athlete. Factors you can't over look.

Everyone knocks Tony C because he was put down by Karl Gotch. As much as I respect and admire Mr. Gotch everyone knows he was a dick for the most part.
I think people don't like Tony C because of the way he sells his products. His techniques seem to be a little "in your face".
I've never heard a bad review of his videos strangley enough.

It's funny how some names ALWAYS come up on this board as notorious in every other post. lol

[Voided_Warranty]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Sakuraba destroyed Helio, Carlos, and Maeda?

At the time he fought the gracie family, he was fighting against people perceived to be one of the best fighting families out there.

But mr. frodo, I just want to ask why do you feel the ground style you have chosen is the one style that is better?

I think I can see why a lot of people would find it to be the obvious answer as to why BJJ is better than style x.

It's pretty fucking complete, and it has a very open rule set in regards to what locks, holds and chokes can be used. While there are some things that just aren't it's strong suit, nor was it designed to do it, (grappling in a wrestling style clinch comes to mind) there are some things that BJJ offers that be used, with varying levels of effectiveness against other ground styles. I mean, fuck, they have their clinch, etc.

Holy fuck, what does BJJ not have? But...I start thinking in more broad terms...not just what I've seen in ADCC, in MMA, but just in grappling in general, that other styles can be just as effective. And i think can be on par with BJJ. Anyway, hope to continue the interesting discussion.

[Voided_Warranty]

Saku won because he had the attributes to win.

Amazing Balance + Amazing Submission Arsenal + Athleticism + natural intuitivenss for the ground game + quick thinking = scary grappler no matter how you look at it.

However...I do wonder, if Saku's base wasn't catch wrestling derived pro-wrestling...would he be the same saku? I don't know, I'll have to think about it.

Anyway.

See you on the far side.

[Cirko Cro Mop]

Originally Posted by Voided_Warranty

I've always been wanting to do catch wrestling, the philosophy of doing the most brutal, effective technique to end a fight was just too appealing to me.

I also can appreciate the fact that catch wrestling is not pretty, it's not beautiful and flowing when two high skilled practitioners are rolling, it's brutal looking to me. It's appealing.

However, the problem is finding an instructor, i'm on the eastern edge of iowa, the problem is, the only people I can really think of atm, is Erik Paulson's CSW and Tony Cecchine...as cool as Cecchine's video are, there is always the problem of finding out people's credentials, real experience and teaching you things that aren't just "show holds" that actually work in a live, free rolling environment.

I've done judo, a bit of BJJ, but more often than not I felt that I wanted something more efficient, quick and most of all, emphasized ending an encounter as fast as possible.

Anyway, I'll keep you updated on my endeavor to find a good catch wrestling instructor.

Get ready to be in a lot of pain for the first month or so of your venture into catch. Its customary for the new guy to be cranked to holy hell.

You can half get away with not being wrestler strong in BJJ, but dont make that mistake with catch. Although leverage is a large part of the game, you need to have a lot of upper body strength to do well.

You will doubt what the guy training you is saying when he shows you how to apply holds, but the BJJ way isnt the only way and certain techniques will add to your overall game

You will get a lot more black eyes than you realise, or at least i did!

If your ever in the UK, check out The Aspull Wrestling Club in Wigan, considered the best catch academy in the world

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by Voided_Warranty

But mr. frodo, I just want to ask why do you feel the ground style you have chosen is the one style that is better?

I actually train in more than just BJJ, you know. From my profile:

Training Background:
wrestling, grappling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, judo

Wrestling includes Combat Submission Wrestling (CSW) and scholastic wrestling too, which some limited freestyle experience too. CSW is greatly influenced by catch and judo, as is scholastic/folkstyle. And I try to continue to improve my skills in all of them. I don't stop being influenced by all of them just because I put a gi on or I use a different rule set. I'm not saying someone who does just one is closed minded, but I do have a good perspective as one who trains all of them. I don't like badmouthing them, but I do try to keep them in perspective.