[chokingvictim]

I've read the FAQ and searched around a bit, but I'm still unsure of the differences between some styles of wrestling. If anyone could give a quick run down of the differences between styles such as catch wrestling, shoot wrestling, submission wrestling, and I'm assuming the only difference between the styles I just mentioned and folk wrestling is that the others incorporate submissions, right?
I read that Dan Severn considers his style to be catch wrestling, but I thought catch wrestling involved submissions, and I never remember seeing Severn even try for submission attempts once. But he claimed that as his style.
If anyone could educate me I'd appreciate it.

[Stickan_swe]

I´m training shootfighting. It´s just an MMA-art with the stand-up from Muay-Thai and Boxing and the groundwork from BJJ and Wrestling. The only difference is that the approach to submissions is perhaps a little dirtier than in BJJ. You crank necks, you WANT to be the strongest zhoo-zhitsoo fighter and you use any necessary force to submit or knock your opponent out.
But it really isn´t that big of a difference. We do triangles, omo-platas and heel-hooks like the rest of the grappling-world.

[Tom Hishon]

I thought catch wrestling was like greco roman. Just take your opponent down and don't let them back up or give up position. Submission wrestling, well I can imagine you can guess.....

Shoot fighting is MMA as far as I am concerned. Just a different name and more roots in eastern culture.

[Short_Stack]

folk style wrestling is like what you would do in highschool for your school i know dan severn is a greco roman wrestler probable just another name for greco roman

[#1can]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_wrestling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_wrestling

[chokingvictim]

Thanks, gotta love wikipedia. I know it's a stupid newb question, but I always thought Severn was a greco roman wrestler, and after reading an interview where he claims shoot fighting or catch (can't remember which it was) as his primary style, I got confused.

[VanDamme]

I'ev got to start saving this stuff when I write it- I cant tell you how many times I've replied to topics like this- if I saved this response to my notepad, I'd save a load of time...

Anyways, you want to know the difference between catch, shoot, submission, and folkstyle- I'll assume you know folkstyle- thats your basic high school wrestling.

Catch Wrestling:

Catch was popular during the early to mid 20th century. Their popularity came about as a result of traveling carnivals and such- each carnival would natrually have their own wrestlers for an attraction (just as you would have strong men, bearded women, etc). The challenge for most carnivals was "Who can pin our wrestler?" This soon became a problem as people who often argue over what a pin was, or how long it had to be held for, so they changed the challenge to "make our wrestler give up" and thats where the submissions worked their way in.

Catch wrestling's philosophy is all about the top position and prefers the idea of being able to attack from any position possible. Footlocks are quite popular as a result- armbars, choke holds, kimuras and many other upper body submissions require positional dominance before you can attempt to apply one- a foot is always there for the taking-they'll even go for twisting toe holds when someone has back mount on them.

To give you an example, Royce Gracie will try to pass your guard and get cross side if he manages to take you down- a catch wrestler (such as Ken Shamrock) will pounce on a foot for a submission the moment he sees it.

A few different names for the same positions though- Mount=saddle, guard=leg scissors, half guard = half leg scissors.

Chokes were natrually not very popular in catch, for the simple reason that many people can take a choke and not "give up"- they pass out, wake up and claim they havent given up, and the fight has to go on. A painfull joint lock will make anyone scream in pain (espciallly with all the small bones in your feet) and muscle slicers also do a great job.

The other philosophy in catch is that they did not believe in giving up position when attempting submissions. This sounds odd considering all the footlocks they routinely went for. To give an example, your standard armbar from the mount is not a popular catch technique, because you stand a chance of giving up and losing the mounted position should the technique fail. A more favorable technique from the mount would be something along the lines of a keylock/Americana. Ken Shamrocks fight against Otsaka is a good display of this.

Over time, carnivals used to pit their catch wrestlers against each other, and promoters would bet on who would win. They eventually found out that they could make much more money of the match was predetermined ahead of time (fixed). As fights became fixed, the need for actual skill for catchwrestlers greatly diminished, and it became that atrocity we see today as the WWE.


Shoto/Shootfighting

Shootfighting is decendant of American Catch Wrestling, as it was I believe Karl Gotch who taught the Japanese the art of Catch. The Japanese threw some of their Judo into it and started having compeitions which they called shootfighting. Under shootfighting rules, fighters can utilize throws and strikes on the feet, but strikes to the head are forbidden, as are any kinds of strikes on the ground. The philosophy natrually is in line with what was written above, since they learned from catch wrestlers.

Submission Wrestling

Submission wrestling is really just a generic term for any type of grappling style that incorporates submissions. For example, Muay Thai is a type of kickboxing, though many people use the generic term kickboxing to refer to many different types of martial arts.

In terms of BJJ, BJJ emphasized position over submission and it recognized a clear heirarchy of positions in the ground fight. The correlation between submission success and positional dominance was made, hence the heavy emphasis on learning how to pass the guard, mount someone, or take the back- an emphasis not seen in other styles.

[satchmo]

Originally Posted by chokingvictim

Thanks, gotta love wikipedia. I know it's a stupid newb question, but I always thought Severn was a greco roman wrestler, and after reading an interview where he claims shoot fighting or catch (can't remember which it was) as his primary style, I got confused.

When he wrestled he competed primarily in Greco, which is the olympic style that doesn't allow any leg attacks and usually features throws. I wouldn't call Severn much of a catch wrestler/shoot fighter since he had limited submissions. It was probably just to promote him.

[Rory McDonell]

great post Vandamme, haven't seen it explained that well before.

[Ybot]

Vandamme- Where did you come about your info on Catch? Your explination is close to the way I understand it, but not exactly. I may be wrong though.

My issues with your explination-

You seem to claim that Catch came from carneval challeng matches, where as my understanding is that the original American professionals of the late 1800's and early 1900's were all catch, because that tended to be the popular rule set that Wrestlers competed with at the time. Catch-As-Catch-can. Typically best 2 out of 3, or 3 out of five falls would win. A fall was generally a pin (though I am unsure what constitues a proper pin in catch), but a wrestler could also get the fall by submission. No chokes were aloud not for the reasons that you stated, but because it was a sporting match and that was one of the rules that was laid out as a standard along with other barred holds. At the time though rules were negotiated and agreed to before the match, so though chokes weren't standard they could be included.

As far as the carneval connection it seems that that was the last place of true catch wrestling after the pros became more and more worked matches. It seems from what I read the carnival wrestlers preffered submissions over pins for a couple of reasons. One being that they started to get good level wrestlers in the audience from amature competitions such as college teams, so even though the pros could often win by pin, why fight someone elses fight. The other reason was close to what you mentioned, people could argue a pin, but you can't argue when you verbally submit.