[Rematch]

Originally Posted by Merlock

If you can throw someone on their back there's a chance you could have thrown them on their neck/head. Sports Judo has also systematically emasculated the art though I'm hardly better at Judo than at Sherdoggin so others can better fill you in.

Karo threw Diego several times on his head. Yet....

[Wrestler133]

Originally Posted by gundreams

It works both ways. Name me one wrestler that beat a BJJer, I can name a BJJer that beat a wrestler in MMA. When it comes down to it, it's the fighter first, then the style, then the rule set.

saku beating royce, old fight but still

[Wrestler133]

Originally Posted by gundreams

It works both ways. Name me one wrestler that beat a BJJer, I can name a BJJer that beat a wrestler in MMA. When it comes down to it, it's the fighter first, then the style, then the rule set.

oh and coleman beating goes

[gundreams]

Originally Posted by Wrestler133

saku beating royce, old fight but still

Arona beating Saku... Touche!

Originally Posted by Wrestler133

oh and coleman beating goes

Nog beating Coleman... ai caramba!

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by pakimahi

Let's be honost ... BJJ does not "promote" leg locks, wrestling has no submissions, (don't know if the allow leglocks?) judo is almost all throws (the judokas that are doing very well in mma are olympic level, while bjj practitioners that are doing well are not all top Abu Dhabi level).. Catch is MADE for mma.

The leg lock is one of Helio's favorite techniques. Here he is applying it in an old video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly_FIAAOKmQ

The thing with BJJ is that there are a lot of sub specialties. There are leg lock specialists, takedown wizards, guard grapplers, and everything in-between. Some people are experts in areas you don't find much in other martial arts like the closed guard, DLR guard or turtle, so people generalize. But BJJers are very diverse in how they do their jiu jitsu.

Personally, I feel catch is little more than marketing at this point though. It devolved for decades, and only recently became practiced better. However, Catch seems like an art being "reinvented" because of the recent popularity of MMA in America (a result of GJJ) not because of itself.

[Al Chai]

imo
on the mat: bjj > judo

on the street: judo > bjj

[Rip-Rabbo]

Originally Posted by gundreams

Technically correct. Henderson took two slots and Gomi is considered a striker for obvious reasons even with his wrestling background.

HW = Fedor (Combat Sambo.. some Judo, but all his titles are from Combat Sambo)
LHW= Henderson (wrestling)
MW= Henderson (wrestling)
LW=Gomi (Shooto/wrestling/karate)

I bet you if you look at the win/loss numbers wrestling will not look as dominating as you make it out to be. thus my statement show me a win by a wrestler and I will show you a win by a BJJer within the last 3 years.

I don't want to get into this argument again, but I'll point out that Fedor certainly has more than "some" judo. He's national champion once, and national bronze medalist once, in Russia which is a very strong judo nation.

If I may copy another post of mine here, since I don't have time to write the same things again right now:

Many, many other judoists besides Karo have adapted to MMA, and matched wrestlers in takedowns.

Akiyama denied Olympic silver medallist wrestler Nagata's takedowns and knocked him out. He cleanly threw former amateur wrestling standout Ishizawa with osotogari, and was never taken down himself. He's done pretty well as Hero's GP winner, too.

Fedor has thrown just about every single fighter he's fought. Every grappling technique that he's used in MMA, with the exception of leglocks, is regularly taught and used in judo competition. Ouchi, kosoto, morotegari, uranage, guard passes, armlocks, pins, it's all in judo. No fighter from any sport has adapted to MMA better than he has.

Paulo Filho has a judo background and he's had little trouble throwing guys around. Sokoudjou is another successful former judoka.

Yoon has adapted well to MMA, even though he was thrown against top opposition. In his second fight, he took Rampage to a competitive decision, and was able to take Rampage down several times, once right into mount. He has two really solid wins in a row now, both by textbook judo technique.

Nastula has done well against everyone he's fought. He completely outwrestled Aleksander and Barnett, and in the Aleksander fight tired because he was not used to fighting at MMA's slower pace. He got back control at least twice, right off of takedowns, but would immediately sacrifice it to try armbars, for example.

Not all judoists have adapted to MMA as well, but not all wrestlers or BJJers to boxers or kickboxers have adapted well either. Top-level wrestlers Kurtanidze and Gaber were thrown against Fujita in their debuts, and were knocked out in the first round.

A lot of the top-level judoists have been given fights against the very best MMA fighters in their debuts, and lost because of their lack of MMA experience. Jacare was knocked out in his MMA debut by a relatively unknown fighter. That does not mean BJJ does not work in MMA though - Jacare has looked better and better in subsequent fights, as have guys like Yoon and Nastula.

[FutureBxer]

Originally Posted by Utopia

This is not a 'Judo vs BJJ' thread. After all, we know that the founder of BJJ is the Judoka Mitsyo Maeda, who taught the Gracies's Judo. BJJ is a branch of Judo, done in a judo suit, with a speciality in Judo groundfighting.

That said, I just would like to make an observation I have noticed over the last few years. No doubt that Judo let the ground emphasis slide over the years, especially when they focused on 'olympic style' which leaves lttle time on the ground. However, they always trained groundfighting, if not putting the same emphasis on it that BJJ does. There has been a resurgence in Judo groundfighting in recent years, with many Judoka now training more in submissions, and sometimes even a BJJ instructor working in tandem at a Judo school to sharpen up submissions, which are all afterall originally Judo submissions. The reverse also happens whre BJJers like to learn the standing grappling and throwing skills lost in their lineage by bringing in a Judo expert.

That said, I think the changes benefit the Judo practioners much more. There was a wisdom in the Old shotokan Judokas that was beyond their pupils including their distant pupils like the Gracies (yes, all BJJ practioners can trace the transmission of their techniques directly through Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo or as it was also known in Japan 'Kano Jiu Jitsu)'.

It takes a LOT of skill and traiing to master throws, balance and getting the top position that you train in Judo. In comparison, learning to sharpen up subs is easier. I am not saying that a Judoka can get up to the level on the ground of a blackbelt Bjjers in just a year or two, but it doesn't take long to get a feel for the differences, after all it is going over familiar territory. In particaular, it doesn't take much for most Judo guys to learn good sub defence against a top BJJer, much easier than a BJJer to learn defecne against Judo throws and takedowns. It seems BJJers do not really train throws at all.

I have 6 years Judo experience, and have now been sharpening up my sub game with a bit of BJJ and submission wrestling. I have no problem at all with BJJ guys who have only ever done BJJ, even to a very high level. This is because It is possible to usually always get the takedown/throw and top position, and if things get a little messy on the ground, I can stand up. This pretty much neutralizes even the best BJJer. Unless he is also trained in wrestling then he is good at takedowns. But against a pure BJJer, if the above strategy is used Judo generally is very dominant. The BJJers just cannot take the fight to the ground, and when he is on his back, he Judoka can easily standup. Especially if they spar on a wooden floor (traditional canvas style, wooden floor covered with a sheet)...a good throw is very effective. I can see why they emphazized throws in Japan. Soft mats are just not realistic and take away the true power of the Judo throw.

For my own training, I intend to train more at a BJJ or sub wrestling school when I can get to one regularly so that I do not have to use so much a strategy of having to get top position all the time. But from my experience, pure Judo works against pure BJJ very well, if you use the correct strategy and make them fight your game i.e throwing them on their backs and getting on top, and standing up if necessary. Works even more realistically and better for Judo on wooden floor sparring.

It works like this:

Position - before - submisson.

Throw - before - position - before - submisiion.

Obvious, but again shocking that Bjj never really focussed on getting throws and good takedowns to get good position. Maybe becasue they originally fought aginst boxers and Karate fighters in Brazil with no takwdown defence?

So all in all, train both if you can, but nowadays, Judo with a bit of BJJ is generally superior to BJJ with a bit of Judo. I will not be surprised if we see more Judo fighter entering mma and replacing the influx of BJJ more. Most good Judokas who have sharpened up on sub skills thorugh sub wretling or BJJ have no problem sparing BJJers, especially if they want to play 'traditional style' on canvas. BJJ is now learning the importance of the throw even if it took about 70 odd years. Judo is the more complete system, and this has come to light more as mma has progressed. But Judo can be grateful to the BJJ which is essentially Judo groundfighting specialists.

all I can say is - i feel you are wrong


BJJ and judo are both great for MMA, with that said




bjj has always been better utilized in MMA than judo. it also translates better to no-gi than judo does.


what else can I say? im just being honest. if you had to choose between one discipline for MMA (judo or bjj) BJJ would be the obvious pick.

EVERYBODY trains bjj... even judoka train it.


it seems a lot of judo fan boys want to believe that judo> BJJ in MMA but it just isnt proven

[Commissar]

This thread is interesting, but there's one problem.

BJJ dominates ADCC, which is the biggest sub grappling tournament in the world. There may have been a few judoka/wrestlers who have done well, but the majority is BJJ.

[Mikeb85]

Originally Posted by Commissar

This thread is interesting, but there's one problem.

BJJ dominates ADCC, which is the biggest sub grappling tournament in the world. There may have been a few judoka/wrestlers who have done well, but the majority is BJJ.

For Judoka the prize is the Olympics, for BJJ players it's ADCC.