Ippon in judo

[350 lbs fist]

First off, this is not a diss on judo or wrestling.

Ippon is by either sub or throw which lands you square on your shoulderblades/back, right?
As a pin in wrestling is getting you shoulderblades/back square down on the mat with a throw or a hold, right?

What is the reasoning behind this?
On hard even surfaces, such as floor or concrete, would a throw like this really finish the fight? ( Speaking as one who has never been thrown on such surfaces. )
On uneven hard surfaces I can understand why this is so devastating.
As for subs chokes are straightforward and broken limbs will most likely make you lose any further struggle.
But them throws and pins just confound me.
I've seen wrestlers and judoka "defend" an ippon/pinfall by landing on their heads instead. Surely this should be a definite win if landing on your back is, if you look at it from a realistic perspective.
Pins? Why do they constitute wins? As a competitor of BJJ I have experienced both sides of the fence when it comes to holding someone down. If a guy has good base and is defensive he can hold someone almost indefinitely, but without incurring any danger to his opponent.
If he starts moving about to execute any offense he opens up for the opponent to do something.

I just want input. I'm fully aware that BJJ has silly rules too. We can of course debate these as well.

Please no flaming as this is meant with the best intentions?
Pretty please with sugar on top?

[Q mystic]

I think a throw rarely ends a fight. Or of course, a pin. I just consider them as goals. For the sport. Its all sport.

OTOH, I don't think that judo would have a fantastic throwing game, or would wrestling have a great scrambling game, w/o them.

[Cardio King]

Throw
Control
Submit


Each grappling art has it's own jive.

[Q mystic]

Originally Posted by Cardio King

Throw
Control
Submit


Each grappling art has it's own jive.

Some sports, or, 1 ...I should say, has plenty in the wins column for each.j/k

[350 lbs fist]

Originally Posted by Q mystic

I think a throw rarely ends a fight. Or of course, a pin. I just consider them as goals. For the sport. Its all sport.

OTOH, I don't think that judo would have a fantastic throwing game, or would wrestling have a great scrambling game, w/o them.

True. So the fact of the matter is that ippon or pinfall throws or pins are there for the sport, i.e the audience's benefit?

'Cause I have such respect for both judo and wrestling but I might be of the realistic type pf mind when it comes to rules. I admit that BJJ has some silly restrictions too.
Maybe ADCC rules are the closest grappling style when it comes to "realism", as real as it gets without strikes anyway, as it bans only seriously harmful techniques like crucifixes and spikes?

[Q mystic]

Originally Posted by 350 lbs fist

True. So the fact of the matter is that ippon or pinfall throws or pins are there for the sport, i.e the audience's benefit?

'Cause I have such respect for both judo and wrestling but I might be of the realistic type pf mind when it comes to rules. I admit that BJJ has some silly restrictions too.
Maybe ADCC rules are the closest grappling style when it comes to "realism", as real as it gets without strikes anyway, as it bans only seriously harmful techniques like crucifixes and spikes?

I think with 'realism', as in fights, I think that the further you go in completing a grappling system(for straight grappling) the further you can get away from 'realism' in fighting as well tho. I mean, the better, more complete grappler you become would have to do more and more that would disregard strikes at any point.

An obvious example imo, is the well known best stance/position standing. In any grappling it would be the 'wrestlers stance'. Unchallenged in grappling, not used in mma. Even judo would often penalize this as it is too defensive for its game to progress as well. The consequence might not hurt as much as in mma for using it but you can lose all the same.

There has to be an even give and take when fighting is considered, for strikers I'm sure as well.

Adcc very much relies on the sub game it seems. Not sure if you can train adcc tho. If so, the takedown could be the furthest from your mind, yet in a fight, the foremost. Depends.

[350 lbs fist]

True. Some "unrealism" must be part of any grappling comp to accomodate real athletes who can suffer real injuries and to do away with stalling tactics. ( Like the no points rule in ADCC )
Most sub wrestling classes I've been to trains for ADCC rules.
My grievance with BJJ is that even at high belt levels, brown and black, many very effective tech's are disallowed, like heelhooks and biceps locks, which would radically transform the game if they were allowed.
I've trained at Gracie Barra and Brasa Copacabana and they were more or less straight forward BJJ gyms. Stellar BJJ gyms to be sure.
At BTT the rules were a bit more laxed and leg locks weren't frowned upon as long as you didn't wrench them in.
For MMA and realism I'd prefer the latter.
I have no problem with noobs being disallowed from using dangerous locks but experienced grapplers, 3-5 years of training or equivalent to purple in BJJ should roll with them IMO to facilitate a greater understanding of the sub game. Despite the different frameworks of rules all grapplers should aspire to learn as much of the sub game as possible IMO.

[Darph]

If you've ever been thrown hard, and landed flat on your back. You'll know EXACTLY why they call Ippon. Frankly, landing on your head/shoudlers/hands can lead to a roll-out. Landing flat, fucking hurts.

I've been nearly knocked out several times by O-Soto-Gari. My coach said he's had 5 concussions from this throw. My breath gets knocked out often. You'll see stars, and lights. A good Judo player can flatten someone with a good throw. Especially Osoto Gari. This is on a mat. If you're talking about a hard surface on someone who doesn't know how to fall? Forget about it. Welcome to Concussion City.

Pinning is the same concept as wrestling, but a Judo pin is 25 seconds. If someone can pin you, for 25 seconds, they can gouge your eyes out, or even elbow you in MMA. I think the route is the whole samurai thing, where they'd stab you with a dagger.

There are a lot of unpopular rules in Judo. You can expect to see a revolution in judo within the next few years:

Bringing back leglocks.
Extending time on the ground.
Ippon by throw will require a cleaner throw. Refs are being way too liberal with this.

[Q mystic]

Originally Posted by 350 lbs fist

True. Some "unrealism" must be part of any grappling comp to accomodate real athletes who can suffer real injuries and to do away with stalling tactics. ( Like the no points rule in ADCC )
Most sub wrestling classes I've been to trains for ADCC rules.
My grievance with BJJ is that even at high belt levels, brown and black, many very effective tech's are disallowed, like heelhooks and biceps locks, which would radically transform the game if they were allowed.
I've trained at Gracie Barra and Brasa Copacabana and they were more or less straight forward BJJ gyms. Stellar BJJ gyms to be sure.
At BTT the rules were a bit more laxed and leg locks weren't frowned upon as long as you didn't wrench them in.
For MMA and realism I'd prefer the latter.
I have no problem with noobs being disallowed from using dangerous locks but experienced grapplers, 3-5 years of training or equivalent to purple in BJJ should roll with them IMO to facilitate a greater understanding of the sub game. Despite the different frameworks of rules all grapplers should aspire to learn as much of the sub game as possible IMO.

Huge diff in my opinion there. For mma I like that open grappling concept in spots, for fighting(realism) I think its unneccessary.

Depends on what the grappler is looking forward to. If he wants to fight like adcc, there are people at his own club I'm sure that would accomodate him not having to include hitting up mma gyms.

The sports are very cool and sooo many like them for the combativity w/o needing to be the best fighter but it sounds like you want mma grappling. I, personally, don't think that mma grappling or adcc(anything goes) grappling have much in common. I don't think there is a way to make a 'sport' of mma grappling. A training system yes, but no way to even it out smooth for scoring. If you are looking realism, just train mma grappling and don't look to do so well in sport grappling comp. Still, good self defence.

[Thrawn33]

Good thread.

Just remember Judo was born of Japanese JJ, a combat art. Judo was a combat art as well, then it became a sport.

You pin a guy to the ground, you can finish him with a dagger or just hold him there while your buddy stabs him to death.

You throw a guy you have the advantage for the spilt second after he falls. Stab, stomp, kick or draw your gun and shoot his ass. I can also imagine it to be hard to get up in samuri armor. You could kill him at your liesure, or just move on, he's out of the fight for awhile.

As for self defence, remember your average joe doesn't have any ukemi training. You know how hard some of those throws are when you can breakfall, now imagine someone with no training falling on concrete. He'll be knocked silly, and is at your mercy.

Judo was born a combat art and developed into a sport. The rules were made for saftey and competition's sake, and they're constanty evolving. I even understand that years ago, the scores of Uko and Koka didn't exist. Your throw had to be good enough for a Wazari or Ippon or you didn't get squat. And thats just one example.