Ah yes, the awesome knee cut pass. I actually attended a Royler Gracie seminar the other day and this exact question was asked.
Royler first firmly stated that if they start this pass with them already having the underhook, you're pretty much already in deep shit (paraphrasing him of course). The fact that they have the underhook means they can effectively flatten you out and keep you from effectively using your hips to shrimp or hip escape in response.
Please, please by all means try to obtain this underhook. From there you can get on your side and use your top knee to bump them and either take their back, or end up in base.
I've used some of Vince's counters to some degree of success, but nowhere near the success I have when I get the underhook. It really comes down to a certain point when they're passing your half guard where the percentages are heavily in their favor - sure you can regain half guard with an overhook somehow, but the chances are MUCH lower than if you had the underhook. Hope this helps!
When I said I dont get the underhook, I meant when I am on top, performing the pass... probably not the best way for me to word it.
i realize if they get the underhook, and get the knee out, its pretty much over. I am still haveing problems with guys hitting this pass by just holding my far lapel and keeping it tight. So I am on bottom, i have teh underhook, and they just grab my lapel and go into this pass.
Many times, i can just sit up in a single leg and i end up underneath in quarter.
I was hoping for some magic elixer when they try to hit this without the underhook.
Been doing really good with my deep half-guard these days. It's not 100%. But i get the sweep most often than not. I walk to get out to the back door. Or I spin around to get the sweep.
I've been experimenting with a variation of this sweep. One that I see Glover and Sim Go do a lot. Basically, I want to get the guy's back. I put a butterfly hook and bump my shoulder to push him off me to go out the back door. It does not work most of the time because he is only in a turtle position for a split second.
Sim go seems to do it differently. He doesnt do a shoulder bump. He uses that butterfly hook and swings into position to take the guy's back. I just don't see how this could work. I mean, are there any details I am failing to notice?
Sim go seems to do it differently. He doesnt do a shoulder bump. He uses that butterfly hook and swings into position to take the guy's back. I just don't see how this could work. I mean, are there any details I am failing to notice?
Thanks for the vid - awesome!
My instructor actually went over this a couple of weeks ago - there are a few details I remember off this type of pass:
- This was based off of a butterfly hook sweep series where if the initial sweep attempt failed, their weight would be distributed so far over you that you could easily exploit the "eshpace" and get under them as you see Sim Go does. However, this can also be pulled off from half guard - the reason I bring this detail up is that the weight distribution will play into the success rate of this sweep. Depending on how your opponent is based out when you attempt this sweep, it may be better to transfer to the x-guard single leg push sweep.
- A detail my instructor thew in that I didn't see in the video is to use your outside arm to grab as close to the kneecap as possible and pull it down. This, in conjunction with extending your butterfly hook, really "lightens" your opponent. Basically, he should be sitting on his butt about to tip over. This makes the back take easier when slipping out the back door.
- KEEP THE BUTTERFLY HOOK the entire time until you get his back. Don't just throw it off mid-sweep. If you do, you have your opponent a chance to distribute their weight back forward, thus tightening up the hole where you could sneak out the back door.
- The hardest part I found about this particular back take was not my leg positioning or the knee grab, rather it was the actual sneaking out the back door. This is something I still have to work on as well (thanks for reminding me about this sweep, I'll be putting this on my "to-do" list for the next open mat drilling session ;) ).
Start from that "trigger position" where you already have gotten underneath them, butterfly hook extended, and are just about to sneak out the back door. Drill the actually back take from there over and over. I've noticed I'm inconsistent with this movement - sometimes I can't get my legs into position clean enough, other times I lose the hook as I'm transitioning, etc. Get this movement clean!
In summary, the last time I troubleshooted this sweep, it was due to the fact I was attempting to "force" out the back door rather than sneak. Watch where your opponent's weight is distributed - if he's sitting back far enough on his butt, this backdoor option is readily available, along with the other homer simpson sweep variation. If his weight comes forward enough, you can start sneaking in an x-guard sweep into the equation to make you even more dangerous. Hope this helps!
You guys noticed he was using a "reverse" butterfly hook, right?
The other side. So it's easier to take the back. But it's not a regular butterfly hook, and you can't go x-guard with it. Saulo and Paragon both teach the reverse hook from deep half as well.
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"I'll keep it short and sweet -- Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business." - Montgomery Burns
I flipped through the jitz university book and its there. The trouble is with that, you bump him so far away you dont have enough time to take his back. He is only in turtle for a split second!
You guys noticed he was using a "reverse" butterfly hook, right?
The other side. So it's easier to take the back. But it's not a regular butterfly hook, and you can't go x-guard with it. Saulo and Paragon both teach the reverse hook from deep half as well.
Very true. I should have been clearer about which hook in whatever situation - I was assuming people would understand that in one situation, use regular butterfly hook, in the other, "other" butterfly hook.
So, to clarify my lengthy post, if they are sitting on their butts and you're deep, "reverse" hook.
If they're over you to the point that you can pull the knee over your shoulder, regular hooks ala x-guard.
First off, great thread and I've learned a lot from it!
I am looking for advice on options from a particular position in bottom half-guard: when you find yourself perpendicular to your opponent, ie something similar to bottom side control. I'm a whitebelt with about 18 months experience.
If the guy stays flat and keeps his free leg in tight, I'm running into problems as I can't underhook that leg to get into a deep half-guard on that leg, which would be my usual approach.
I have seen some of sweeps from here that involve grabbing the pants on the outside of the knee and doing a backwards roll. However, I'm not real keen on a 'flat' back roll motion as I have some back issues - is rolling over the shoulder an workable alternative? Shrimping the inside leg out to regain guard, take the back or armlock is something I have been trying out, but not having great success with turning it into an attack yet. If anyone has details on these movements, or other options from this position they would be greatly appreciated.
Very true. I should have been clearer about which hook in whatever situation - I was assuming people would understand that in one situation, use regular butterfly hook, in the other, "other" butterfly hook.
So, to clarify my lengthy post, if they are sitting on their butts and you're deep, "reverse" hook.
If they're over you to the point that you can pull the knee over your shoulder, regular hooks ala x-guard.
I do exactly the same. If I've got the "far leg" latched on, then I use a regular butterfly hook for an x guard, or use a reverse DLR knee under the guy. Elevating him. But if I have the "single leg deep half guard," then I use the reverse hook.
If it's confusing, Yoshida is doing what I call the "reverse DLR" in the second pic here. I either put him in this position or the x-guard if I have a deep underhook on the far leg.
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"I'll keep it short and sweet -- Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business." - Montgomery Burns
My instructor went into a lengthy discussion of half guard passes the other night. During the rolling sessions, I had a chance to try out the "negative" pass as dubbed by Marcelo Garcia (half guard attempt at 2:14, passing goodness at 2:18):
I've found this type of pass works very well when combo'd with the kneebar attempt from top half guard. IOW, spin one way for the kneebar, if that fails, spin the other way for a negative pass attempt. Combine this with crossfacing, flattening them with the far side underhook, and whizzering / darcing the hell out of them for their underhook attempts, and you can make half guard hell for your opponent
Any other thoughts on this pass / combinations with other techs from top half?
