[guardpasser]

Note from Aesopian: I split this off the Goal Setting thread, since it turns out my goal to work on half guard is very interesting.

good plan,
you might also get into bad positions and try to work to the two positions you want, that way you train yourself to go there automatically.

[Aesopian]

Good idea, guardpasser. Thanks.

I've got some ideas I wanted to flesh out. They're mostly speculation right now, since I haven't really put them into action yet. But I want to write them out so I can commit them to paper (as it were) and make myself think about them. We'll see how they pan out and how they change as they're put to the test.

My problem with the half guard where you fight for the underhook and move to the back is that I really, really hate being crushed and I really, really, really hate being crossfaced. And I've never been able to play it without getting crushed and crossfaced, even if I succeed. That's why I've developed a half butterfly game and switch to butterfly and x-guard so much -- I want to get them the hell off me.

Aside from pet peeves, I've also simply had a hard time with the two most important aspects: getting the underhook and turning on my side. My arms tend get trapped and stuck in bad spots. Without the underhook, I'm stuck on my back. Again, the half butterfly game remedies this since I can play it flat with an overhook.

But still, it's nagged me. I see other small guys play this half guard extremely well. It's a highly technical game, so I must be missing that proper technique, or at least not have it ingrained properly.

If I'm ever to get into this game, I'll need to address my two main concerns, being crushed flat and crossfaced. Solving this, the underhook should come more easily along with the rest of the game. I think I need to look earlier and see why I'm ending up in bad posture and position.

Whenever someone asks me how to get out of terrible positions or nearly finished submissions, I tell them it's like a boxer asking how to undo the last punch that hit him. You're too late and you're either in for a tough battle or you're done. I'm applying that same attitude to my half guard positioning. The real solution is awareness, avoidance and fixing problems before they're really problems.

I have the bad habit of not fighting for the underhook before they've settled their weight. By that point, they're fighting for superior grips and underhooks of their own. Getting a good half butterfly only made this worse since then I really didn't care if I had the underhook. I've got to break this habit and force myself to be more aggressive.

There are a couple tools that'll likely help me have more time to setup a proper half guard:

- Getting my knee against there hip to maintain space. Saulo teaches this in his first set, and it's part of the z-guard Leo Kirby does.
- Framing posture, with a forearm across their neck and the other hand on the biceps (paw grip). This keeps their weight off and blocks the crossface.
- Double paw, for when I really don't want to get crossfaced.

Using these together puts them in a sort of "long range" half guard. This position gives me time to turn on my side while staying safe before diving in deep for the underhook.

I have more thoughts on what to do once I'm diving deep, but I'll save those for later. I need to start getting there in the first place.

[Frodo]

Sorry for the thread hijack. Aesopian, that's exactly what I try to do as well. In fact, when I started I was the typical top-position wrestler guy. This hampered my development so I decided to try always pulling guard in practice. This really helped me get my guard up to spec despite my short legs and arms. That's one reason why I feel people avoid practicing from their back, because they are "uncomfortable," are idiots for purposely limiting themselves.

Originally Posted by Aesopian

- Traditional and deep half guard with the underhook.

I used both traditional and half butterfly half guard against a big guy (who had over 50 pounds on me) tonight. Usually I use traditional half guard since I'm good at it and it works well against people around my size and skill. Against bigger guys or when I'm very tired, I found that it works less effectively. So I used the half butterfly half guard and it seemed to work very effectively against him.

Does the half butterfly half guard work better against bigger guys who like to throw their weight around, while the traditional half works when he is nominal sized enough that you can get leverage? That is, the half butterfly works when they drive into you while the traditional half works when they try to pull away?

[Aesopian]

As I said, half butterfly guard is my solution to guys who drive in and crush me, so it definitely works well there. The times I do play the traditional game is when they give me too much room and don't use their weight properly.

But I'm not the proper measure of these two guards. Half butterfly works even better when they sit back since then you have room to play, and I know plenty of guys who can do traditional half guard when getting smashed by bigger guys.

[codemonkey76]

i've used a fairly deep half guard from day dot not knowing if that is a bad or good thing, but i have had pretty good success in getting under them and normally escaping out the back once i get their hips across me. I have always like playing the bottom and that's were i am comfortable, it really used to bug me when we would start from the knees and instead of the guy tackling me to the ground where i can pull guard, if they sat back so i was in their guard i would be at a loss...

That is why i am gonna concentrate on top game for a while.

[Aesopian]

For future reference and easy access, I'm posting a transition into deep half guard I want to work on:

You have half guard on their left leg. Your right hand is ready to defend the crossface.

Your left arm is underhooking their right leg. Ideally, this would be really deep, with their leg on your shoulder, but realistically you’ll just get a hand under their knee.



When they go for the crossface, duck your head and swim your right hand under their armpit.



Shove their armpit and ribs to send their upper body away.

The key is getting my hips underneath their hips. From there I can lift them and break their base. I really need to commit to the movement of switching and throwing my hips under them. Keep scooting, shrimping, bumping under like I want to go out the back door.

The traffic cop hand shoves their armpit to throw their weight forward (which helps get me under their hips). They also can't crossface since they can't turn back towards me and they need to use their arms to post or they'll face plant.

Once I'm deep enough, I can switch to a gable grip so I can pull their leg on to my shoulder to spread their base and keep them leaning forward. Like in the electric chair sweep:

I can also keep the normal underhook and switch back to the traditional half guard if they base back and won't let me go out the back door. Rocking back and forth from here and threatening sweeps to the front and back (and coming out to their back either way) seems to be the key to staying aggressive and not getting squashed here.

[codemonkey76]

nice, i love this move

[Aesopian]

Keep in mind that what I've shared so far is mostly untested. What you're seeing is my private thought processes made public. I think this stuff will work well based on experience with similar techniques and concepts, but it's still supposition until I put in the footwork and try it on a bunch of guys in sparring.

[Fight_Song]

I think the most common thing you'll find when going for that transition is that (from the gi pics POV) the top man will sit his right knee through and slide that knee under your hip. He'll really want the crossface too.

I always think you're better at the underhook -> take the back or stand neutral game than the edges and coming out the back, but that is most likely my wrestling experience speaking. A lot of people have a good time with the edge and coming through the legs so I'm not going to tell anyone not to go for it.

Saulo's no-gi dvds has a great half guard part with coming out the butt and out the back. he uses awesome set-ups and I think he uses a half butterfly when he comes under the butt so he can get a x-guard kinda thing where he cradles your leg over his shoulder. The top man has no base at all at this point and he can use his butterfly hook to elevate and finish his sweeps. That's why I think butterfly half is better than normal half for going out the butt. You have the hook to lift them.

I'll watch it tonight and give you better input.

[Zankou]

Originally Posted by Aesopian

For future reference and easy access, I'm posting a transition into deep half guard I want to work

When they go for the crossface, duck your head and swim your right hand under their armpit.



Shove their armpit and ribs to send their upper body away.[/indent]
The key is getting my hips underneath their hips. From there I can lift them and break their base. I really need to commit to the movement of switching and throwing my hips under them. Keep scooting, shrimping, bumping under like I want to go out the back door.]

.

I'm hitting this transition all day now. The key for me is actually to control the crossfacing arm and drive it over you (you can use both hands, as if you were going for a kimura -- in fact the kimura attempt helps set this up). Then you switch to pushing against the armpit, so that he is sprawled over your body. You will get the leg easy if that happens. I "hoist" the guy up with my legs, pulling them towards me as I push the armpit. Even if you don't have the leg, the guy's hips are raised up. It's exactly like pulling x guard. In fact you can pull x guard, if you so choose, but it's not necessary. I just scoot out the back door mostly, with the guy pushed into "wheelbarrow" mode.

Like in that picture, if Leo just pulls his knees to his chest as he pulls on the leg and pushes the armpit, it will elevate the guy and make it very easy to slip under him. You can actually sweep the guy over your head from there, but I've been unable to hit that sweep as of yet. The point is to get the guy's hips raised high up, then he's doomed.

I am starting out my half guard with a DLR/Reverse DLR type position, what I think of as "open half guard." As the half guard gets tighter, I use Z guard to freeze the opponent with space. I use that space to work around for an attack, either arm dragging the near arm, kimuraing the far arm, grabbing the foot, or taking an underhook and "kicking" through. There is so much to do ... the point is that the z guard gives you time and space to set it all up and launch into it.

I'm also playing a lot of "shin" guard by passing the lapel and trapping the guy's shin against my own. Have not had great success with finishing from that position, but still fun.

A key thing for my z guard is to point the trapping foot *down*, just as gustavo machado shows for the quarter guard. The principles are quite similar.

So much fun with the half guard these days. It's ridiculous how many variations and sweeps you can play. It's finally getting some teeth to it.