Gracie Combatives - What the hell?

[anaconda]

meh...i still think sparring is the most important thing. and sparring against quality opponents, even those focusing on the sport aspect, will sharpen your skills much more than sparring in a supposed self defense situation.

i would take a black belt from this years mundials (say someone like tarsis) against a black belt from 15 years ago. Sure, nowadays bjj is much more sport specific. But the new school grapplers have also been forced to fine tune their control to a level old school grapplers never developed.

OSG turtling against NSG would get his back taken in a heartbeat. He wouldn't be able to stand up at all. His half guard, defensive as it is, would get him passed in the blink of an eye.

Sure there are a lot more flashier techniques - however, the only reason those flashier techniques work is because all the underlying movements have been refined further and further into laser accuracy.

i would also take NSG in a street fight just because his technique is better overall.

[stu3ufc]

the gracies made jiu jitsu and now they ruin jiu jitsu

[JRT6]

Originally Posted by anaconda

meh...i still think sparring is the most important thing. and sparring against quality opponents, even those focusing on the sport aspect, will sharpen your skills much more than sparring in a supposed self defense situation.

i would take a black belt from this years mundials (say someone like tarsis) against a black belt from 15 years ago. Sure, nowadays bjj is much more sport specific. But the new school grapplers have also been forced to fine tune their control to a level old school grapplers never developed.

OSG turtling against NSG would get his back taken in a heartbeat. He wouldn't be able to stand up at all. His half guard, defensive as it is, would get him passed in the blink of an eye.

Sure there are a lot more flashier techniques - however, the only reason those flashier techniques work is because all the underlying movements have been refined further and further into laser accuracy.

i would also take NSG in a street fight just because his technique is better overall.

Yeah but in a street fight against who? We all know that unless you live in a really bad place or like to start shit at bars getting into street fights is rather rare (but they do happen don't misunderstand me) BUT what do you think the chances are in a street fight against some low life or drunken frat boy that he is going to have any idea about passing half guard let alone getting someone stuck in one?

That's the point of these videos, defending youself against older dudes who can't let their HS wrestling years go or some drunk dude at a bar who starts to go through a mid life crisis with the kid battling violent insecuirty issues.

[anaconda]

Originally Posted by JRT6

Yeah but in a street fight against who? We all know that unless you live in a really bad place or like to start shit at bars getting into street fights is rather rare (but they do happen don't misunderstand me) BUT what do you think the chances are in a street fight against some low life or drunken frat boy that he is going to have any idea about passing half guard let alone getting someone stuck in one?

That's the point of these videos, defending youself against older dudes who can't let their HS wrestling years go or some drunk dude at a bar who starts to go through a mid life crisis with the kid battling violent insecuirty issues.

I would take NSG over both OSG and a random bum on the street.

simply put, his technique is better and he has has perfected it against fully resisting opponents. granted, a guy on the street will not react to moves the same way a sparring partner will.

However, I believe most blue belts and up at least are fully capable of taking down a single unarmed untrained opponent who is not some kind of gigantic monster. If there is more than one person, or one guy who is armed, highly trained, or some kind of gigantic monster, you shouldn't be fighting him anyway.

Besides, if you are just buying these for self defense I have to go back to the old tried and true argument - if you want to be able to do a move properly in combat or simulated combat situations, you have to drill them dozens and dozens of times, and then practice them against fully resisting opponents.

Practicing a move once or twice after watching a dvd or doing a seminar is not enough. I believe I could get a triangle on the street easier than I could some of these self defense moves, even if I watch the dvd or train the moves a few times, simply because I have done the triangle so many more times.

[knoxpk]

I dont agree with anaconda on that one. I would take NSG 60% of the time in a sport situation and OSG 60% of the time in a real fight or MMA.

Again, I am not talking about some no technique bum. I am talking about good BJJ practicioners that simply have a different focus.

Like I made mention some guys that have what I would consider MMA styles were the likes of Sperry, Bustamante, the Gracies. (of course).

I have not watched him extensively but from what I have seen and read on this forum Roger Gracie is the type of fighter that looks like the "old style" of BJJ and apparently he does pretty well for himself.


I am not suggesting training 2 weeks or a month with no grappling will make you a BJJ stud.

What I am saying is that you really dont need to mess with rubber guard, inverted guard and such if you are training for self defense or MMA.

Being brilliant at the basics can and will take you a long way.


Other than youtube I rarely have seen high level sub grappling comps, but doesnt it pretty much come down to the fundamentals at high levels anyway?


***Edit***
I am not saying a BJJ school should not learn/teach/introduce "sport" grappling games into the gym.
I think everyone can benefit from the exposure to a different look at grappling or BJJ.
What I am saying is that I still feel the older style of BJJ is every bit as effective (if not more) in a situation that includes a person not content to stay on the ground with you or that has the option of punching/kicking/elbowing/kneeing you.
I also feel that if you are focusing on Self Defense that your BJJ will look a whole lot different that what might by typical right now. It is entirely possible to be an effective fighter only knowing a takedown or two, being GREAT at the closed guard game and even better at the top game.

I just dont think it could happen it 2 weeks.

I am not behind the 2 weeks to blue belt promo in case you are wondering.

[LocalNmass]

I'm not sure why/where all this info on this dvd set comes from. But it's highly inaccurate.

1st, the a belt in 2 weeks.... In the book that comes with the set its says the course is 108 days/training session's to complete it. It does NOT say after the 108 days/training sessions you should try for the belt.

Rener and Ryron tell you in the video introduction only once you've got all the techniques and there variations should you submit a video of yourself. They want you to be able to do all the techniques on both sides. IMO there are 36 core techniques, but maybe 3 variations of each, thats 100+ techniques to be proficient at.

For sparring, they tell you, you need a partner, they even setup a database so you can find someone in your area who's also interested in learning.

I'd consider myself a NSG, a blue belt, and I'm quite confident the material in this set is FAR better than the stuff I know for self defense. I hope I can use this material and end up more like a OSG

If the reason to dislike the set is based on the american little league mentality of everyone wins/gets a trophy for participating. Your really just fooling your self.
I am under no impression I could send a video of myself and expect a belt in return.

The irony is, I've only watched the 1st video and I already feel this way.

[Jimmy Cerra]

Don't you think there are "NSG" with basic games? I think you are generalizing too much, knoxpk. Anaconda's instructor brings in the top talent constantly to their gym. His thoughts are not from watching videos or fantasy match-ups, but by meeting and rolling with those "NSG" that you deride. They aren't one trick ponies.

[anaconda]

Originally Posted by knoxpk

I dont agree with anaconda on that one. I would take NSG 60% of the time in a sport situation and OSG 60% of the time in a real fight or MMA.

Again, I am not talking about some no technique bum. I am talking about good BJJ practicioners that simply have a different focus.

Like I made mention some guys that have what I would consider MMA styles were the likes of Sperry, Bustamante, the Gracies. (of course).

I have not watched him extensively but from what I have seen and read on this forum Roger Gracie is the type of fighter that looks like the "old style" of BJJ and apparently he does pretty well for himself.


I am not suggesting training 2 weeks or a month with no grappling will make you a BJJ stud.

What I am saying is that you really dont need to mess with rubber guard, inverted guard and such if you are training for self defense or MMA.

Being brilliant at the basics can and will take you a long way.


Other than youtube I rarely have seen high level sub grappling comps, but doesnt it pretty much come down to the fundamentals at high levels anyway?


***Edit***
I am not saying a BJJ school should not learn/teach/introduce "sport" grappling games into the gym.
I think everyone can benefit from the exposure to a different look at grappling or BJJ.
What I am saying is that I still feel the older style of BJJ is every bit as effective (if not more) in a situation that includes a person not content to stay on the ground with you or that has the option of punching/kicking/elbowing/kneeing you.
I also feel that if you are focusing on Self Defense that your BJJ will look a whole lot different that what might by typical right now. It is entirely possible to be an effective fighter only knowing a takedown or two, being GREAT at the closed guard game and even better at the top game.

I just dont think it could happen it 2 weeks.

I am not behind the 2 weeks to blue belt promo in case you are wondering.

Dude, I am not talking about NSG guys just because of rubber or inverted guard or whatever. I don't think you need any fancy stuff for BJJ competitions, let alone for MMA or self defense.

What I mean is that the NSG has a much more refined technique due to being exposed to so many more games and so many different ways of thinking, that his game had to tighten up to take into account everything. For that reason, his fundamentals are much much tighter.

Take a guy like Roger for example. I have never seen him do a single "fancy" move. In fact, if he wasn't as good as he is most people would consider him boring. But the thing is, his game is just so smooth and tight, using bjj fundamentals, bc he has tons of different training partners who use every single variation of every game imaginable. If all you do is go against very simple games, your game will not be as sharp as someone who is exposed to a multitude of variations. Does that make sense?

We had Otavio Sousa in our gym recently, and that guy is the same way. Not a fancy move at all. But his technique is so clean and precise and tight that you just can't do anything about it. I would take him in a street fight or in a competition over the OSGs any day.

[anaconda]

Originally Posted by Frodo

Don't you think there are "NSG" with basic games? I think you are generalizing too much, knoxpk. Anaconda's instructor brings in the top talent constantly to their gym. His thoughts are not from watching videos or fantasy match-ups, but by meeting and rolling with those "NSG" that you deride. They aren't one trick ponies.

how did you like the seminar? the guy is good, huh

[knoxpk]

I AM generalizing and speaking in very general term. I am not making this about BJJ VS art or New BJJ versus OLD BJJ.

What I am stating is that a very basic fundamental style of BJJ that is based on a free fight or a free"er" fight so to speak.

I would guess that even Bravos guys are exposed to a basic,effecient game both top and bottom but what is it that they may generally practice?
(Yes I know the EB's stuff is not technically BJJ)

Anyway its another moot point/stalemate so to speak.

I agree multiple styles work well especially considering sparring partners. Itsw a no brainer that you need to be able to shut down someone else's game if you want to win in sub grappling.

But rogers style for example is so nice to watch because there is little to no modification needed for him to succeed in grappling AND MMA and a real fight.


Also please dont confuse basic to mean unskilled. Someone (like Roger, Sperry, Bustamante) can be very good and even dominant with a simple gameplan simply because they are so good at it!


Ok guys, Im off to get married.


Have a GREAT day!!!!