A few questions on BJJ points

green_machine · 05-01-2008, 10:46 AM

This past weekend I helped out with a small local tourney by reffing some kids and teens divisions. I've competed myself in 6 BJJ tournaments so I'm pretty versed in the rules and all that, but there were a few situations where parents or coaches bitched at me for calling or not calling points based on what I thought were the rules. Let me know what you guys think so I know for future reference.

1) Player A takes Player B down, lands in side control. I give 2 points for the takedown and 3 for landing in side control. The coach of Player B bitches at me saying that he didn't technically pass the guard, so the 3 points shouldn't have been awarded. I guess I always assumed you would get 5 for this, since only awarding takedown points kind of punishes somebody with good wrestling or Judo for taking their opponent down cleanly and not landing in full or half guard.

2) Player A has side control on Player B and was just awarded 3 points for passing the guard. Player B is able to get his half guard back. Player A passes the half guard back into side control. I didn't give Player A points again and got bitched at. The way I've always understood was that as long as Player B doesn't advance himself to a neutral or superior position, then the side control points won't be awarded again.

3) Player A has side control on Player B and was just awarded 3 points for passing the guard. Player A successfully goes to knee-on-belly and is awarded his 2 points. Player B finally is able to get some space and force Player A to drop back down. During this, Player A goes around North/South to side control on the other side. I don't award side control points again. Player A goes to knee-on-belly on other side. I don't give points for this either. Was I right in not re-awarded side and knee-on-belly points?

4) Player A has side control and was just awarded 3 points for passing the guard. Player A takes the mount and is awarded 4 points. Player B is able to get his half guard back eventually. Player A passes this half guard back into the mount. I don't award mount points again. Player B eventually gets his half guard back. Player A passes this half guard into side control. I don't give 3 points. Right or wrong?

There are a bunch of little situations like this that you usually don't think about until it happens, so I was confused a few times and made judgement calls. Any info you guys can give me would be appreciated.

Hamburger Legs · 05-01-2008, 10:55 AM

1) I pull guard, so fuck if I know

2) You were incorrect, every time a player obtains a position, it's more points, even if he's placed back in guard and has to pass again for the same position

3) You were right in not giving more points for side, because N/S is technically still side control, so going to the other side is a lateral movement. You weren't correct in not giving more knee on belly points though.

4) Totally wrong, player A should get points for EVERY forward movement(not lateral ones though), so if guard is replaced and he passes again, more points. That's how the top players get scores of like 36-2 in matches. If you didn't award points for every pass/mount/knee on belly, then there would be a finite amount of points you could get in a match, and if you got them all, then you'd just want to stall so your opponent wouldn't get his highest point amount(which would result in a tie).

Balto · 05-01-2008, 10:57 AM

1) While I agree with you that it is a silly rule, most BJJ tournaments will only award 2 points for landing past the guard. The standard rules require for the opponent to have first established a guard for you to get the 3 points by passing it.

2) Whether or not you give points depends on whether or not the guy actually "established" a guard position. If he just snags the leg briefly, that doesn't count as a guard position and there are no points. However, once he actually establishes a true half guard position, there should be points awarded again for passing. What exactly qualifies as a "half guard" position seems to be a judgment call with the ref.

3) I won't award knee on belly points again until there is another guard pass. This prevents the guy from popping up repeatedly to keep scoring 2 points. I agree with not giving points here, although I have seen some refs do otherwise.

4) Again, it depends on whether or not the guy had established a true "guard" position with the half guard. It is the ref's judgment call as to when the guard is actually reestablished versus merely hooking the leg in an escape attempt.

Hamburger Legs · 05-01-2008, 11:03 AM

Balto brings up an interesting point about knee on belly. What IS the rule on that, because you can't have a guy going from side to KOB, back to side only to go back to KOB again and get points for it all. On the other hand, what if there was like 1 whole minute between KOB, but guard was never replaced, points? Also, in my responses, I'm just assuming every guard replacement was an established one, and was held for at least 3 seconds.

Luther · 05-01-2008, 11:06 AM

I'll give my comments following the official IBJJF rules and my experience as a referee certified by Alvaro Mansur. I'm a purple belt.

Also I will not discuss the "rightness" of the rules, just what they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_machine

1) Player A takes Player B down, lands in side control. I give 2 points for the takedown and 3 for landing in side control. The coach of Player B bitches at me saying that he didn't technically pass the guard, so the 3 points shouldn't have been awarded. I guess I always assumed you would get 5 for this, since only awarding takedown points kind of punishes somebody with good wrestling or Judo for taking their opponent down cleanly and not landing in full or half guard.

You are wrong, they were right. Takedown is 2 points, even if player lands in side control. (this is something I would change, but the rules say so)

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_machine

2) Player A has side control on Player B and was just awarded 3 points for passing the guard. Player B is able to get his half guard back. Player A passes the half guard back into side control. I didn't give Player A points again and got bitched at. The way I've always understood was that as long as Player B doesn't advance himself to a neutral or superior position, then the side control points won't be awarded again.

You are wrong. If the bottom player manages to regain half guard he risks to be passed again. If it's the bottom player putting himself willingly in half guard then no point for passing. The point here is the effort from the bottom player. (sometime it's obvious sometimes less)

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_machine

3) Player A has side control on Player B and was just awarded 3 points for passing the guard. Player A successfully goes to knee-on-belly and is awarded his 2 points. Player B finally is able to get some space and force Player A to drop back down. During this, Player A goes around North/South to side control on the other side. I don't award side control points again. Player A goes to knee-on-belly on other side. I don't give points for this either. Was I right in not re-awarded side and knee-on-belly points?

You are wrong. If it was a top player choice to leave knee on belly then no points. If it was the bottom player to escape then the points have to be awarded again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by green_machine

4) Player A has side control and was just awarded 3 points for passing the guard. Player A takes the mount and is awarded 4 points. Player B is able to get his half guard back eventually. Player A passes this half guard back into the mount. I don't award mount points again. Player B eventually gets his half guard back. Player A passes this half guard into side control. I don't give 3 points. Right or wrong?

Again wrong, see above for explanation.

You should have awarded 10 points (7 for passing from half guard into mount, and 3 for passing the guard again).

Man, at minimum, you should ask some black belt to teach you the rules before refereeing.

green_machine · 05-01-2008, 11:16 AM

Haha I suck. Thanks for the clarification.

Like I said I compete quite a bit so it was one of those situations where you think you know what you're doing until you have to make a call. I don't plan on reffing much...it was a short-notice thing and agreed to help out. As is usually the case with kids, one good kid was usually dominating the other sucky kid, so I didn't feel justified in repeatedly giving points to the much more skilled kid who would allow the other kid to get back half guard just so he could pass back into side or mount.

Will_N.O. · 05-01-2008, 12:23 PM

Props to you for volunteering with the kids, it's easy to see how you could have thought it would be no problem.

Anyway, from the situations you described it doesn't sounds like your mistakes were outcome-affecting...more like you scored it 12-2 when it should have been 38-2, lol.

kid dynamite · 05-01-2008, 12:35 PM

lol very bad... the only time you don't award those points like knee on belly or passing is if player A lets go of knee on belly, and puts it again on and off. but as long as the bottom guy escapes it, and top puts it again, he gets points

ShanghaiBJJ · 05-01-2008, 12:39 PM

What a royal f***-up! Haha, but at least you stepped up and volunteered,,

TacWar · 05-01-2008, 02:38 PM

going to the knee on belly question, my understanding of the rule is that as long as you move around to the other side you can re-establish knee on belly for points.. Ie I'm on the right side I go knee on belly, its taken off I circle around to n/s and then side control and then apply knee on belly I get the 2 points again.

I thought it was odd the first time I saw this, especially since I saw a guy score 10 points off doing this and then he just laid on top for the remaining time. yet, when I asked three different referees and a black belt about the rule they all agreed so I now incorporate it into my tournament training lol.