[S.D.Force]

Originally Posted by Jiu-Jitsu Cop

I had a wrestler use what sounds like a similar technique on me. He grabbed my throat and used his weight to push down on my throat to force open my guard. It really sucked but I am glad he did this to me in practice before I learned it on the street.

funny you should say that....i wrestled at the State Meet in Cali many years ago. ... it's not really a wrestling move, but i guess most wrestlers tend to have a more agressive side to them sometimes that is hard to express in JJ most of the time.

In all of the tournies i've seen, and all of the tapes, and practices i've been to i've never seen anybody use this technique as i execute it. Although i have seen people just post their hands on a persons throat and work from there. Which can work when used as part of a larger package. It's just much more tame and accepted. Although after i've used it in tournies, nobody has ever said anything to me afterwards, and i've never had a match stopped b/c of illegal techniques.

if this were actually a street situation, then this technique could be used as i describe to a different end. And you could apply a number or different variations that could render your opponent unconcious. And all the while you are usually safe from arm bars as he is still recovering from shock and in bad position.

[350 lbs fist]

Can anyone post a photo/sketch/clip of this technique?
Anything that needs power sounds good to me. : )

[sha]

It really sucked but I am glad he did this to me in practice before I learned it on the street.

That is the right mentality to have, I think. As long as you and your partner agree to go at the same level, you shouldn't be afraid of using or receiving a little pain. For example, yesterday while I was on top in side control with a new but really powerful guy, he headlocked me. A good way to break his grip is to crossface him, or grind your elbow in his face. Of course it's unconfortable, but since it gets the job done and doesn't injure him, why not use it ?

Now the problem is when people only rely on grinding and forget about other techniques. A technique involving physics and biomechanics is nearly always better than one relying on pain, but you should know both.

[JustSomeGuy]

Originally Posted by S.D.Force

The basic premise is a jamming of your palms/hands into the guys neck powering it into the mat, all done at the same time you tripod out of his closed guard that he has pulled you tightly into.

You are right, it's hard to see how you wouldn't get armbarred putting your hands on someones throat while in their guard.

[Jiu-Jitsu Cop]

the way my opponent did it to me (He was a haevy weight wrestler out of Bakersfield), was he grabbed my thraot with his hand and leaned into so much that he was stacking and choking me at the same time. He is pushing on my neck as if he was trying to flaten it on the ground. Since he held it with his hand it takes more than a pushing of his arm to get it off. If I was lighter ( Not 230 lbs), I may have been able to get my leg aroud to the armbar. I notice that smaller Jiu-Jitsu guys have an advantage when it comes to being able to bring their legs up by their heads. I did get out of the hold but I lost positioning (and some air), against an opponent who had a good ground fighting game.

[fightme]

The reason I divided so called "dirty" tactics into 3 different catagories is because I complete agree that something can be "unpleasant" but legal.

So far as "Knee on the belly" is concerned I have no problem with it. It is an great position from which to launch submissions from. I only stated that it is unpleasant because frankly if done correctly it really is. But that doesn't make it wrong or bad.

"Dirty" is a subjective term at one time foot and ankles locks were considered "low rent" in BJJ. Some people still think that way but some do not. I personally have no problem with them.

Bottomline I think it is up to each individual to train to not to put yourself in "bad" positions or learn how to defend them.

But let me say this I am in my mid-30's and I train because it is fun and it makes me feel good. I would like to be able to keep training until I am old and gray. A few so called "dirty" tactics are not going to stop me.

However I believe in karma so the same "dirty" shit you do to other people will eventually come back and bite your ass.

Like my pops says.."All your dirt will come out in the wash"

My .02

[Frodo]

There are only very few techniques I consider dirty, yet still legal, in randori. They are air chokes and heel hooks, because those moves can seriously injure your partner during training. The number one rule in practice is safety, and in my opinion those moves are too dangerous for normal sparring. Heel hooks are particularly nasty, since they are sometimes deceptive. So at the places I train, we just yell "heel hook" and the other person taps if the other guy has it locked well. Now I have no problem with knowing and rolling live with those techniques sometimes - just not for normal practice.

BTW, the knee-in-thigh pass is easy to counter most of the time, at least for me, so I don't know why people think it is cheap. Also, I hate the wrestlers who are 10x bigger than you and try breaking my guard by the "forearm in throat" technique. That is a grunt manuver, and stupid. But it isn't dirty - it just reflects worse on the partner than me!

[Resident A-hole]

Originally Posted by Jiu-Jitsu Cop

the way my opponent did it to me (He was a haevy weight wrestler out of Bakersfield), was he grabbed my thraot with his hand and leaned into so much that he was stacking and choking me at the same time. He is pushing on my neck as if he was trying to flaten it on the ground. Since he held it with his hand it takes more than a pushing of his arm to get it off. If I was lighter ( Not 230 lbs), I may have been able to get my leg aroud to the armbar. I notice that smaller Jiu-Jitsu guys have an advantage when it comes to being able to bring their legs up by their heads. I did get out of the hold but I lost positioning (and some air), against an opponent who had a good ground fighting game.

If he is stacking you & grabbing your neck at the same time, the majority of his weight will be leaning forward over your face. It should be very easy to sweep him back over your head from that position.

We are taught to post on the neck & stack like that, but immediately let go of the neck once you are standing so your weight is back & you can't get swept over.

[Kawlinz]

Originally Posted by Frodo

There are only very few techniques I consider dirty, yet still legal, in randori. They are air chokes and heel hooks, because those moves can seriously injure your partner during training. The number one rule in practice is safety, and in my opinion those moves are too dangerous for normal sparring. Heel hooks are particularly nasty, since they are sometimes deceptive. So at the places I train, we just yell "heel hook" and the other person taps if the other guy has it locked well. Now I have no problem with knowing and rolling live with those techniques sometimes - just not for normal practice.

BTW, the knee-in-thigh pass is easy to counter most of the time, at least for me, so I don't know why people think it is cheap. Also, I hate the wrestlers who are 10x bigger than you and try breaking my guard by the "forearm in throat" technique. That is a grunt manuver, and stupid. But it isn't dirty - it just reflects worse on the partner than me!

Heel hooks aren't dirty, they're dangerous. If someone applies a clean heel hook, you will get your shit snapped. Dirty is a legal technique that people deem cheap because it's usually not a technique that's widely practiced and is more for pain than destroying limbs. Someone mentioned using the forearm under the nose to lift the head when attempting a rear naked. This is a 'dirty' technique because 'anyone can do it'. But this is false... not anyone can do this technique, only people that are in a position for the rear naked can do this technique.

I agree tho, the forearm in throat doesn't even work... the guard is designed to control their body, how can they be putting their forearm in your throat if you control where their body is?

[Jiu-Jitsu Cop]

Yes a sweep would definently be an option. My opponent in this case was 240+ lbs and had a good base. I talked with him afterwards and found out he had been wrestling for about 20 years and loved to fight the Jiu-Jitsu guys because he felt they did not give wrestlers enough respect. He had learned alot of our counters and was constently trying to draw me out. It took me a little out of my game because I treated him as a wrestler who never wrestled against a Jiu-Jitsu guy and as a result I was almost submitted a few seconds into the fight. I will try the sweep next time on him.