[Shadowdean]

Ugh, I did not intend to start a flame war...

[Thalion]

I dont want say that Strenght is useless in judo.
Strenght is part of Judo, But JU has to be a more relevant part of it.
Look at Kimura, he was strong , fast and phisically trained as hard as the modern Judoka or even better.
I say that today strenght is used to compensate lack of timing or technique. Judo has become more "Muscolar" then in past. It's easy to see 2 athletes stalling in a clinch pushing each other. That's (to me) is not a good judo.

Nowaday referee gave Ippon to throws that arent "perfect". To take an Ippon ur throws have to be fast, power and with controll.
If I do a combination of counters like Seoi Nage to Kata o toshi, slamming Uke on his neck falling on him, they give me an ippon. I don't like that.

To make and examples. Look at a Ride of motorbike. With 2 talented opponents.
One has a technical perfect drive, very clear without making any mistakes.
The other one has a dirty drive, taking more risk riding the bike more phisically.
Both are champion and both are able to win. Someoen like most the first someone got excited by the second. But their drive are different.

Same for Judo.

Russian = more pragmatic and muscolar
Japanese = more aesthetic and technical

To see ? I prefer Japanese. To do? probably russian would be easier to me to take in

[sha]

I personally think that a lot of this "wrestling/sambo/russian judo is more about brute strength that classical judo" is simply not true.

Some martial arts are all about not using any strength. Aikido for example, I can't imagine lifting weights would improve your aikido. Maybe original japanese judo was like this. Other arts try to develop strength through a conditioning program, wrestling is one of those.
This doesn't mean one is better than the other, just that their philosophies are different.

Nobody ever said wrestling is only strength and no technique. But it seems to me that the techniques are designed for maximum effect, not minimum strength use.

[Darwinist]

Originally Posted by Thalion

I dont want say that Strenght is useless in judo.
Strenght is part of Judo, But JU has to be a more relevant part of it.
Look at Kimura, he was strong , fast and phisically trained as hard as the modern Judoka or even better.
I say that today strenght is used to compensate lack of timing or technique. Judo has become more "Muscolar" then in past. It's easy to see 2 athletes stalling in a clinch pushing each other. That's (to me) is not a good judo.

Nowaday referee gave Ippon to throws that arent "perfect". To take an Ippon ur throws have to be fast, power and with controll.
If I do a combination of counters like Seoi Nage to Kata o toshi, slamming Uke on his neck falling on him, they give me an ippon. I don't like that.

To make and examples. Look at a Ride of motorbike. With 2 talented opponents.
One has a technical perfect drive, very clear without making any mistakes.
The other one has a dirty drive, taking more risk riding the bike more phisically.
Both are champion and both are able to win. Someoen like most the first someone got excited by the second. But their drive are different.

Same for Judo.

Russian = more pragmatic and muscolar
Japanese = more aesthetic and technical

To see ? I prefer Japanese. To do? probably russian would be easier to me to take in

If you think that referees give out Ippon´s too easily, then that´s an entirely seperate problem, and one I as a BJJ player agree with. That really has nothing to do with the russian style of Judo.

But I think that you are simply approaching Judo from the wrong starting point. Aestetics have no place in a martial art which is, at least to some extent supposed to simulate and prepare the user for real life struggle. The first thing that comes to my mind when someone is asking, "is this throw/submission/sweep/punch/kick/whatever a good technique" is "can you deliver it, and can you sink it/land it on a resisting opponent?" If the answer is yes, it´s a good technique, if you can´t it´s not, no matter how pleasing to the eye it is.

It´s form vs function, and as long as you spar and compete in an alive manner(outside the Uke/Tori paradigm) then function will always reign supreme over form. Once you start awarding Ippon based on whether you think the technique was beutiful or not then you are IMO diluting the essence of what has made Judo an effective martial art while many others, like Aikido have lost their effectiveness through their obsession with "good form".

Of course good technique is essential, simply because it makes everything easier. There may be a tendancy to muscle throws, in which case you pair the musclehead up with someone even stronger than him - now he must use technique to win!

It´s obvious to me Thalion that you pine for the glory days of olde when the masters had it all figured out how Judo was supposed to be. I tend to be a forward thinker, and I think that the level of Judo skill and the depth and breadth of techniques is greater today than at any other point in the history of the sport. It´s evolution baby!!!

[Cojofl]

One issue I think is a problem for Russian Judo is that it was devised to win in sport Judo at the elite level. It is somewhat assumed those using it would have the physical attributes necessary to compete at the top level. It may not be necessarily as useful as Japanese style Judo would be for the average 45 year old who may want to keep in shape more than anything else.

Sociologically, I find the difference in the approaches that developed in Materialist, Atheist Soviet Russia vs Spiritual Japan really intriguing, but that's another thread.

[Q mystic]

I sometimes wonder if it (changes)had to do with their size. Russians are generally bigger and when I watch judo the smaller weights seem to be more technical and larger guys more power and forcing due to less agility.

[Shadowdean]

Well, I know wrestling has a much longer history in Russia than Japan, so its natural that the "always working" mentality of wrestling - always pushing forward, grinding away, is more prevalent in Russian Judo than Japanese judo. THe Russians do like to grab the belt more with their throws (already stated? I observed this during my last Judo practice where we have some russian and eastern european judoka)..I also think they tend to be a bit more liniar in their exicution.

[Noskill]

Technique is what works.
Good technique is what works often.

What is the technique a pot-maker needs? Whatever art allows him to make pots. What is the technique a judo player needs? Whatever technique allows him to score Ippon.

Who cares if the pot-maker sings and dances while making his pots? That might make the sight more enjoyable, but it has nothing to do with his pot-making technique.

Problem is: traditional guys think there are only as much techniques in Judo as there are entries in the GO-KYO. Well here is one thought that should make you feel awesome, Judo mystics: There are as many Judo techniques as there are stars in the universe. The GO_KYO is just a list of names really. If a technique doesn't fit one category, it doesn't make it less 'technical'.

[Gratification]

Judo encompasses a whole lot. All the Japanese got my head spinning.

What this thread is really about is how Judo should be taught. Most people who aren't too proud will say that it should be taught in the most effective and the most competitive way possible. If there is anybody with hangups on using the most effective way, they should make a new sport.

[Thalion]

If Judo has to be taught in most effective and competitive way, Japanese still got it. 'cause their judo IS the most effective, Look at Olympics game.

At Sidney 2000 : Japan 4G -2S -2B , France 2G-2S-2B.. then China, Cuba , Italy ...
Russia only 11th with 1S -3B

At Athens 2004: Japan 8G - 2S , Cuba 1S - 5B ... then China and Russia 4th 2S-3B

Russian and Est Europian are very good in Judo, but not better then French, Cuban and Chinese . Japanese are still the best overall.