The Cross-Collar Choke Thread - Page 5

Simco · 06-08-2009, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarceBrabo

It was from an example that I was giving that comes from Roger's strength and conditioning training (which he actually does do quite alot of). If you think that strength and conditioning have nothing to do with grip strength, and being able to really apply the sh*t out of a cross choke then your not thinking hard enough. Roger was able to rip Drysdales gi top with sheer grip strength alone.

Something that gets quite often overlooked is that Roger is a freakishly large human being, and he is also freakishly strong. You add those with BJJ and you have a nightmare to deal with.

You said, verbatim "Not to mention the fact that he's huge, has ridiculous grip strength, and can bench press over 350lbs. Im sure that has ALOT to do with the effectiveness of his cross collar choke from mount."

I understand you can't explain that, since it doesn't make any sense, but I gave you a chance to backup and correct yourself, anyway.
Instead you used your rebuttal as an opportunity to claim that a person who is 6'4" and 220lbs is "freakishly large." Perhaps you're from Cambodia or a similar country with diminutive male stature, in which case I apologize for assuming you have the same environment as those of us who live in the first world and see people who are 6'4" and 220lbs several times a week. I shouldn't have made a point to bring attention to your ignorance when it really isn't your fault. I'm sorry.

easy tiger · 06-08-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zankou

One thing I really like to do is drop the elbow HARD, with almost all my weight on it, once I get the first grip. I'm basically balancing on the elbow onto the chest, keeping my weight off my feet and hips, almost like a yoga pose. The pressure is horrible, and your opponent will start thrashing from side to side to get out, giving up either a deep choke or an armbar.

I think this may be one of the most important points. I don't know if you've seen the Mastering Chokes DVD by John Will and David Meyer, but their instruction on the basic cross collar choke is the best one I have seen to date.

Art Vandelay · 06-09-2009, 12:20 AM

I do not think I have ever finished a cross collar choke from mount.

Maybe I'll get it in a couple of years. It took me over 2 years to start finishing papa/papercutter/breadcutter chokes.

So this Roger Gracie character finishing 9 elite black belts with the same choke is really wild.

redaxe · 06-09-2009, 12:39 AM

Dude, 6'4" and 220 lbs is big, but it's not exactly FREAKISHLY large. I bet almost all decent-sized BJJ clubs in America have at least one guy that size. Hell, I'm 6'3" and I used to weigh 225--but 140 pound purple belts destroy me every day in training. Size matters, but at that level? Come on. Roger is winning by superior skill/technique and nothing else, period.

Sloth · 06-09-2009, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zankou

This is one of my favorite finishes. From mount, it is a powerful technique. From guard, not so much because it is really the weight and the smashing that makes it work.

The single big difference, I believe, between a guy like Roger using this choke and using it in class is that the guys who are good with it basically just batter you into submission. They take their grip and just crush you with their elbow and forearm. It's not a slick move so much as a horribly brutal assault. It's almost the exact opposite of a collar choke from guard, which is a slick timing type move.

My professor showed me some details on it which he said he got from Rickson. A lot of what he showed was how once you have the grip, you can steer the guy around with it. Instead of thinking it as a submission to execute, it's more like a brutal control position. Frankly I think most high level submissions are better thought of that way -- you're not looking to finish so much as exert dominating control through the setup.

One thing I really like to do is drop the elbow HARD, with almost all my weight on it, once I get the first grip. I'm basically balancing on the elbow onto the chest, keeping my weight off my feet and hips, almost like a yoga pose. The pressure is horrible, and your opponent will start thrashing from side to side to get out, giving up either a deep choke or an armbar.

That's a cool detail with putting all of the weight on the elbow, I'll give that a shot tomorrow!

zige79 · 06-09-2009, 04:52 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

mythago · 06-09-2009, 07:35 AM

Roger has choked me with this. It was not fun.

I asked him to explain the finer details, which I will share with you:

The first thing is base. Let's say you want to get your right hand in first. Post out with your left hand and lean over to the left, preventing the guy from bridging/bucking you off to the right.

The next thing is to get the right hand in deep. After that it's all over. Experienced opponents know this and will defend tenaciously. If you just try to push your hand using shoulder strength, the guy will most likely be able to keep it out.

What Roger does is to brace his right elbow on the inside of his hip bone/inner thigh and then lean forward, using his body weight to force the hand inside the collar. Get it deep.

Next step. Zankou has it spot on. Move the elbow onto his breastbone and lean your bodyweight on it as hard as you can. Vicious. I was considering tapping just from that.

Next reach over his head with your left arm and base on your left elbow. Hook your thumb inside his collar near his left trap, palm up. Then bring your left elbow up over his face in a quick movement and apply the choke. Since only your thumb is hooked in, it helps if you have inhuman grip strength like Roger. Leaning forward and basing your head on the ground often makes it tighter.

Even if it isn't perfectly across the throat the guy will tap, believe me.

Against Roger, my recommendation would be to worry less about the neck, which he will get anyway, and do everything you can to recover half-guard quickly. Good luck with that. Haha.

Hope this helps you guys.

Bathwater · 06-09-2009, 08:50 AM

^ thanks for the insight.

esila · 06-09-2009, 09:12 AM

Just on a slight tangent - a lot of the discussion reminds me of Al MacInnis, an NHL defenseman with one of the best slapshots in the history of the game - easily averaging near 100MPH. The crazy thing about him was that he was far from intimidating as far as size goes (6'1, 201lb). His slapshot was the application of perfect technique and mechanics.

Roger's approach to the cross collar choke (from what all the great feedback in this thread has provided) just reminded me of this. Carry on non-NHL BJJ fans ;)

slideyfoot · 06-09-2009, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mythago

Roger has choked me with this. It was not fun.

Out of interest, are you at RGA, or trained with Roger at a seminar or something like that? Just asking as its always nice to bump into other RGA people online (though I guess I don't quite count any more, since I've left London).