The Cross-Collar Choke Thread

[GracieMMABarra]

I think a lot of people count his height and weight for it but really his hips are why his mount/top game is si great. Roger's hip are very wide and big making his base extremely deadly combination along with his long legs. Everyone who trains with him regularly will tell you the way he shifts his hips and applies pressure in second to none. Honestly his own weakness to expose are standing and his open guard isn't the best but everything else is playing into his game.

[Sherdog_Mutt]

Ok. I've resolved to work on my cross-collar choke (from guard and mount) for the next month.

From what I have seen and heard, not just Roger, but many of the Gracies (Rickson, Rorion's sons, etc...) have killer cross-collar chokes. When I was just a white belt, I remember hearing this story of Rickson giving a seminar on the cross-collar choke. When the black belts in attendance complained about him teaching such a simple technique at a seminar that they paid good money to attend, he proceeded to roll with everyone at the seminar and submitted everyone with the cross-collar choke. Now I don't know if this is true or not but from what I have seen, the Gracie family members are the only ones that have been hitting this sub with any sort of consistency.

It is easy to attribute Roger's proficiency with this choke to his physical attributes or "perfect technique". What I am trying to figure out is exactly what little details or attributes make this technique so effective for him. I'm primarily interested in how to improve my own cross-collar choke.

From what I can gather, the consensus here is: A) Roger has a really stable mount, B) he's really good at clearing the defending hands, C) he's really tall and big (allowing for a good mount base), D) he moves his hips well (also accounting for his awesome mount), and E) he may or may not be insanely strong (including vice-like grip strength).

[Oliver Geddes]

Well, I've been in a class where Roger has taught the cross choke from mount, so, uh, I'll give it as I got it from the man:

Getting the hand in - Don't try and slide it in. It's a lot harder to do that. Instead, grip at the back of his collar with just the hand (palm up), and then basically slide your elbow down. Yes, they'll block it with their arms, but if you're heavy enough with the pressure, it'll move in the end. Once it's in, adjust it a little bit so it's tight, then start working with the other hand.

Finishing the choke - in general, the second grip should be palm down. It's much easier and gives you much more opportunity to base if you start to get rolled. The principle in this is pretty much the same - start with a grip a little back on the collar (just try to get the thumb in, really), and then 'shave the face', bring the elbow and forearm down and around, and apply the pressure from there. Again, they'll block it, but if you pressure it for long enough, it goes from being uncomfortable to painful to not being able to breathe to tapping.

All of this is dependent, of course, on having a very tight mount and believing in the technique. But we are talking about Roger, who basically put all his weight on Romulo for, oooh, six minutes until Romulo couldn't take it anymore and he passed. So that kinda goes without saying.

It was a while ago, and it's not really my technique (not much of a mount guy) but hopefully that helps someone? ^_^

Take care,

Stalks

[GZUS]

x choke is my favorite. kind of like the arm bar from gaurd. the more you train it the smaller the space you need to complete the technique. its not always learning the new technique but practicing the ones that work for you no matter how primative they may seem. I am only a purple belt but x choke other purples out all the time with xchokes and arm bars from guard...etc.

[DarceBrabo]

Originally Posted by Simco

I'd love to hear how bench strength is relevant a cross collar choke.

It was from an example that I was giving that comes from Roger's strength and conditioning training (which he actually does do quite alot of). If you think that strength and conditioning have nothing to do with grip strength, and being able to really apply the sh*t out of a cross choke then your not thinking hard enough. Roger was able to rip Drysdales gi top with sheer grip strength alone.

Something that gets quite often overlooked is that Roger is a freakishly large human being, and he is also freakishly strong. You add those with BJJ and you have a nightmare to deal with.

[krellik]

Originally Posted by DarceBrabo

It was from an example that I was giving that comes from Roger's strength and conditioning training (which he actually does do quite alot of). If you think that strength and conditioning have nothing to do with grip strength, and being able to really apply the sh*t out of a cross choke then your not thinking hard enough. Roger was able to rip Drysdales gi top with sheer grip strength alone.

Something that gets quite often overlooked is that Roger is a freakishly large human being, and he is also freakishly strong. You add those with BJJ and you have a nightmare to deal with.

I asume the other poster was wondering how pushing strength could help with a move that esentially is about pulling strength, like how much extra weight he can do pullups with or how much he can row with a barbell would seem more relevant to this specific tech. Still I get that the bench is a descent excersice to show overall uperbody strength and meaning that you propably got descent pulling strenght to go along with it.

[Jomma]

Originally Posted by krellik

Still I get that the bench is a descent excersice to show overall uperbody strength and meaning that you propably got descent pulling strenght to go along with it.

will i agree that most probably do have decent pulling strength, there are TONS of people who can bench 1-2x their weight for a max but can only do 1-5 pullups....ie not balanced at all

[krellik]

Originally Posted by Jomma

will i agree that most probably do have decent pulling strength, there are TONS of people who can bench 1-2x their weight for a max but can only do 1-5 pullups....ie not balanced at all

Well honestly the leverages when you bench are more favourable than pulling yourself up in a pullup, so you cant compare exactly like that, the barbel row is closer to the bench but that is still a bit less favourable when it comes to leverages, so even if you have descently balanced pulling and pushing strength you would most likely be moving less in the barbell row than in the bench.

The motion in the pullup would be closely related to a military press and its honestly quite rare to see people that arent lightweights putting up bodyweight and more above their head in a military press.

[Zankou]

This is one of my favorite finishes. From mount, it is a powerful technique. From guard, not so much because it is really the weight and the smashing that makes it work.

The single big difference, I believe, between a guy like Roger using this choke and using it in class is that the guys who are good with it basically just batter you into submission. They take their grip and just crush you with their elbow and forearm. It's not a slick move so much as a horribly brutal assault. It's almost the exact opposite of a collar choke from guard, which is a slick timing type move.

My professor showed me some details on it which he said he got from Rickson. A lot of what he showed was how once you have the grip, you can steer the guy around with it. Instead of thinking it as a submission to execute, it's more like a brutal control position. Frankly I think most high level submissions are better thought of that way -- you're not looking to finish so much as exert dominating control through the setup.

One thing I really like to do is drop the elbow HARD, with almost all my weight on it, once I get the first grip. I'm basically balancing on the elbow onto the chest, keeping my weight off my feet and hips, almost like a yoga pose. The pressure is horrible, and your opponent will start thrashing from side to side to get out, giving up either a deep choke or an armbar.

[nefti]

Originally Posted by DarceBrabo

It was from an example that I was giving that comes from Roger's strength and conditioning training (which he actually does do quite alot of). If you think that strength and conditioning have nothing to do with grip strength, and being able to really apply the sh*t out of a cross choke then your not thinking hard enough. Roger was able to rip Drysdales gi top with sheer grip strength alone.

Something that gets quite often overlooked is that Roger is a freakishly large human being, and he is also freakishly strong. You add those with BJJ and you have a nightmare to deal with.

honestly, is he bigger than PDP?? Bigger than Werdum? BIgger than Gonzaga? everyone that he has beaten.