Classcial Japanese Judo vs. Euro/Russian Judo

[EE6_TBOIO_MATb]

I'm enjoying this thread. Unfortunately i can t contribute... too little knowledge to say anything meaningful.

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

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[sha]

Personally I find an ippon from a khabarelli just as beautiful as an ippon from an osoto gari.

And the danger with trying to defend traditional judo is that people will shut out new moves, and then be unable to defend those moves because they're not familiar with them. Sort of like what happened with BJJ and leglocks a few years back.

[WARserra]

Originally Posted by ArTofF16hT1ng

Here's an example of the Russian style. Note especially the throws done at 10 secs, 24 secs, 44 secs, and 56 secs. At 10 secs there's an off-grip fireman's carry and at 24 secs some kind of back drop.

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Kata Guruma is as traditional as it gets.

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

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[georgejjr]

Originally Posted by ArTofF16hT1ng

No sir. Prof. Kano only added kata guruma after seeing wrestlers use the move. The ippon seoi to kata-guruma is more of a European move.

Actually the story I've read (apparently from Kano's own writings) is that he was having trouble throwing a fellow in club randori, and looked around for a way to defeat him. He found the fireman's carry in a book on western wrestling and used it, liked the result, and made it part of the Kodokan syllabus. That is, not only did it come from wrestling, but Kano went out and looked for it. Think about it - its not that he happened to see the move and decided it was good, he actively searched wrestling techniques to find a solution to a problem.

The judo traditionalists should think about that - the founder had no reservations about studying other disciplines to see what worked, so why do 'modern' traditionalists have problems with it?

[Thrawn33]

I say let the sport evolve, but give respect to the old-school.

Bashing old sensei's for teaching the Judo that they learned and mastered is disrespectful, and as they are probably more accomplished than you in the sport of Judo they are entitled to their opinions. You don't like the traditional style don't train under a traditional coach.

That said all beginners should start in the traditional style. Its only after you've got a good hold of the basics should you begin to learn the more modern style. Kind of like BJJ, you don't skip over your basic sweeps and move right into gogo's you have to build a solid base of skills.

I do belive we'll see the traditonal Japanese style over take the Euro style sometime in the future as part of a natural ebb and flow of things.

What I think we're seeing now in the Olympics are fighters who's skill in the traditional style cancel each other out which forces them fight in the more modern style. Put one of the medalists against a person of lesser skill (non Olympian) and plan on seeing traditional Kodan throws.

[Shadowdean]

What exactly can you call basics? Seriously. What is basic now was progressive 10 years ago. Sports - any sport where you compete and looking for an edge, the basics change. That is just the basics of it. Judo, Jiu Jitsu, anything will always run the risk of being antiquated should it not evolve with the times.

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

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[Frodo]

Originally Posted by ArTofF16hT1ng

No sir. Prof. Kano only added kata guruma after seeing wrestlers use the move. The ippon seoi to kata-guruma is more of a European move.

Um, no. Kata guruma's been in the sport for about the entirety that judo existed. Check out this thread on Kata Guruma's Origins from JudoForum.com:

"After a great deal of hard work, Jigoro Kano devised this technique while he was still a young man studying at the Tenshin Shinyo Dojo. With him there was a certain Fukushima who was not only an advanced student but a large well-built man as well. It was a great source of displeasure to Kano that regardless of how hard he tried he could not beat this Fukushima. He worked day and night pouring over books on wrestling and sumo and finally came up with the kata guruma which one day enabled him to hurl mighty Fukushima to the floor."

So he got it from BOOKS on wrestling AND sumo (which certainly had the technique). Kano modified it for his own purposes according to that link. He trained at Tenshin Shinyo Dojo sometime between 1877 and 1881. This was before he founded the Kodokan to teach judo in 1882. So to say kata guruma was incorporated into judo only after Kano saw wrestlers doing the move is kinda ignorant and highly exaggerating.