[robyrob211]

Hi All,

I have just finsihed watchin Tony Cecchine's videos on catch wrestling...

Some of the ideas he has on submissions are truely fantastic.. He seems to be able to submit his opponents from pretty much any position, negative or positive...

Naturally in catch, the submission superseeds any position ideology... I have always been taught differently!!?!

I want to know if any BJJ/Judo/Submission grappler guys on this forum have rolled with a catch wrestler??

I just want to encorporate some catch ideas into my grappling gameplan and i want some advice as to what various other arts found difficult to cope with.

So what is your art? and what did you find most difficult to handle? How did you handle the numerous submission attempt from even negative positions? How did you overcome them? e.t.c

Thanks for the Guidance...

p.s. In no way is this an attempt to knock any other artform... So please no X is better, Y is rubbish e.t.c

Thanks...

[krellik]

Those vids and everything else I have seen by catch or catch influenced guys like Erik Paulson is that it is a -huge- toolbox, best not used by itself but in conjunction with a solid bjj/subwrestling game (more orthodox one)..

My personal ideal grappling is a solid bjj/(bjj influenced-)subwrestling heavily combined with wrestling, and in that type of game the huge toolbox of catch and sambo fits in nicely...

Everything that works -use it-.

But do realise that Tony is hyping Catch and unesesarily have a conflict with bjj, saying stupid shit about the guuuard (said in mocking voice), its all about hype generation and just simply dont buy into it. Grappling is grappling.

[knoxpk]

honestly , Ceccines credibility isnt bulletproof. Catch wrestling in general is pretty weak in the US. having said that I have seen his videos and I too liked them very much. Although many say that position is sacrifised I do not see how.
In fact catch wrestling is pretty much just folkstyle wrestling with the submissions mixed back in. In folkstyle (a style I DO know something about) its all about control and lvererage, how can you maintian control and leverage against your opponent if youa re giving up position?

I think this is heresay. While watching Sak fight you notice he maintains control until its time for the sub...unless of course he is in a defensive position...

[scorcho]

Cecchine has some great ideas. The quasimoto is an amazing counter to the closed guard. That said, I do not think there are many places you can learn catch from a qualified instructor.

[robyrob211]

Hi all, thanks for all your input...

Krellik - I agree on two points, 1) Tony hypes catch mercilessly, i don't buy into everything he says.. 2) The toolbox of subs is enormous and also easily executable...I agree, a solid positional game in grappling combined with these skills would be a great arsenal.. I think this also links to what knoxpk states about saku and his positional control before bursting out for a sub.

knoxpk - What you say is interesting. I agree, if you want you don't have to sacrifice position, infact some of the pins and hold downs offer great leaverage, with possible imrovements on other grappling arts.. But i think the philosophy of catch is such that you constantly stream submission attacks and at some point you may have to loose/sacrifice position to go for a submission. Why not just use a different catch grappling philosophy? Don't think that the hook superseeds position, continously strive for position but just use the hooks and attacks that Tony recommends...

scorcho - the quasimoto is something that caught my eye immediately, it doesn't look too hard to pull of either and offers so many offences. I found that incredible since you are attacking from a very negative position (closed guard)...

I look forward to your input on this....

[knoxpk]

knoxpk - What you say is interesting. I agree, if you want you don't have to sacrifice position, infact some of the pins and hold downs offer great leaverage, with possible imrovements on other grappling arts.. But i think the philosophy of catch is such that you constantly stream submission attacks and at some point you may have to loose/sacrifice position to go for a submission. Why not just use a different catch grappling philosophy? Don't think that the hook superseeds position, continously strive for position but just use the hooks and attacks that Tony recommends...

scorcho - the quasimoto is something that caught my eye immediately, it doesn't look too hard to pull of either and offers so many offences. I found that incredible since you are attacking from a very negative position (closed guard)...

I look forward to your input on this....

Ok I see your points but let me tell you mine. IMO the guard is something that catch does not address well. WHY?
Like in wrestling if your shoulder blades are on the mat, you lose. They dont use guard much or counter it much. Certainly they have a position called the body sciccors but make no mistake this is not the guard.
The quasimodo, in theory looks good but I recall an incedent when a "catch guy" and his old school dad attended a BJJ class and he was trying to work the quasimodo and he got caught in a traingle/armbar combo the moment he reached back to hook the ankle.

Be very careful what you take and what you leave.

Certainly there are alot of pain compliance moves that are worth to look into but be very smart about it. I will say the same about sub grappling also..In a MMA envirnment I have seen plenty of guys fall back into an armbar from the mount...I would not do that either, so hey there you go. I would prefer to sit on his chest and pound away.

[robyrob211]

Originally Posted by knoxpk

Ok I see your points but let me tell you mine. IMO the guard is something that catch does not address well. WHY?

The quasimodo, in theory looks good but I recall an incedent when a "catch guy" and his old school dad attended a BJJ class and he was trying to work the quasimodo and he got caught in a traingle/armbar combo the moment he reached back to hook the ankle.

Hi again,

Yes the guard is not addressed well in catch. This is true.. This probably has some influence on the "catch guy" being caught in the triangle/armbar...

Yes i think catch has some great ideas.. Infact i think it's main benefit is that it's byproduct is causing as much pain and aggravation to the opponent at all times. If you remember Bruce from the videos, he was gurgling like crazy!! haha

So i will incorporate some of it's methods in my grappling gameplan, but i think i will be taking a more positional philosophy rather than always going for a submission when in a negative position... Sometimes i will go for a sub from a negative position as the element of surprise can always help too!!

[azjudoboxer]

If it's genuine catch wrestling, sure it has benefits. But very few places in the US teach real catch anymore

[robyrob211]

Originally Posted by azjudoboxer

If it's genuine catch wrestling, sure it has benefits. But very few places in the US teach real catch anymore

Well i'm actually in England, London to be precise, so i am looking for a catch place, but it's not easy to find!!

[azjudoboxer]

England is the hoome of true catch wrestling. SHouldn't be too hard to find a place