BJJ Blue vs A Judo Blackbelt a true story

Sambo234 · 07-30-2006, 07:24 PM

Ok, so after starting Judo and doing some newaza, I was able to roll with a Judo blackbelt for a good deal of time. I'm 155 lbs... this guy was 180, so he had a pretty significant weight advantage over me.

So after rolling with him for a good 10-15 minutes of sweeping and being swept and attemping the occasional rubber guard sub(and once getting his leg trapped for an inverted heelhook which I touched and then realized where I was..) , he passed my guard and established himself in a pretty solid side control. After about 2-5 minutes trying to get to my knees etc. to avoid a pin (rolling newaza in Judo rules mind you). At this point I could feel he was getting a little bit frustrated. He had been attempting many collar chokes which I had been defending pretty well. So he sprawls, and reaches and grabs with his left hand my left wrist which at this point is grasped onto my collar defending. Like anyone with a decent size/strength advantage could, he muscles a fairly ugly Americana set up. I defend for a couple seconds straightening my arm out and grabbing my gi but he breaks my grip and sinks it in.

Now, not to bash this Judoka's newaza, but this guy had been a Judo BB for some time, I honestly felt, had he not had a 25 pound weight advantage, that the match would have gone a bit differently.

Now this isn't a BJJ > Judo thread... because I'm obviously crosstraining in both, but for those who say a Judo BB's ground game is just as efficient as a BJJ BB achem (Q Mystic <3 and you other Judokas) in my experience, it wasn't the case.

just my first hand experience on the subject.

and oh yeah, he would have obliterated me standing.

azjudoboxer · 07-30-2006, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambo234

Ok, so after starting Judo and doing some newaza, I was able to roll with a Judo blackbelt for a good deal of time. I'm 155 lbs... this guy was 180, so he had a pretty significant weight advantage over me.

So after rolling with him for a good 10-15 minutes of sweeping and being swept and attemping the occasional rubber guard sub(and once getting his leg trapped for an inverted heelhook which I touched and then realized where I was..) , he passed my guard and established himself in a pretty solid side control. After about 2-5 minutes trying to get to my knees etc. to avoid a pin (rolling newaza in Judo rules mind you). At this point I could feel he was getting a little bit frustrated. He had been attempting many collar chokes which I had been defending pretty well. So he sprawls, and reaches and grabs with his left hand my left wrist which at this point is grasped onto my collar defending. Like anyone with a decent size/strength advantage could, he muscles a fairly ugly Americana set up. I defend for a couple seconds straightening my arm out and grabbing my gi but he breaks my grip and sinks it in.

Now, not to bash this Judoka's newaza, but this guy had been a Judo BB for some time, I honestly felt, had he not had a 25 pound weight advantage, that the match would have gone a bit differently.

Now this isn't a BJJ > Judo thread... because I'm obviously crosstraining in both, but for those who say a Judo BB's ground game is just as efficient as a BJJ BB achem (Q Mystic <3 and you other Judokas) in my experience, it wasn't the case.

just my first hand experience on the subject.

and oh yeah, he would have obliterated me standing.

Doesn't BJJ always claim that it's superior especially against bigger stronger opponents?

judogido · 07-30-2006, 08:06 PM

AFAIK, no judoka here says the judo ground game matches the BJJ ground game.

It is fairly common knowledge that BJJers spend a lot more time and are generally stronger on the ground. Nothing new there.

I've posted before that there are BJJers that I have rolled with that IMHO would get pwned by most of the half decent judoka I know. There are also many BB judokas that would get pwned by a fair BJJer (not even a GOOD BJJer).

The issue, as has been discussed many, many times over is that a black-belt in judo does not translate over to a black-belt in BJJ, nor can you with any degree of accuracy compare it to a brown, purple or blue - it all depends on the relative skills and strengths of the individuals concerned.

Heck - at least you did not immediately sub him several times as is the assumption of some about the outcome of a BJJ blue vs a Judo black.......

Rinksterk · 07-30-2006, 08:13 PM

It is a fact that judo guys have weaker ground game in general. Because of some guys in MMA, I used to think that if I train really hard in judo, I could match up well against bjj guys. I also bought some BJJ instructionals to see what its about. After watching a bunch of BJJ matches, newaza in judo class looked weak. Even 1st or 2nd degree blackbelts looked sloppy as hell, nevermind people who are ranked lower. The guys who are really good at newaza are pretty old. I think I could get develop a really good ground game studying judo, but it would take longer. I'm seriously considering quiting judo and using that money to go to a BJJ place becuase of this.

Frodo · 07-30-2006, 08:13 PM

A judoka black belt told me that (1) the version of ude garami we were doing wasn't an "americana" and (2) that you should not move his elbow to his hip during the move. Sorry, but sometimes judoka dans don't know the number of details they think they do on the ground...

And yes, I have choked out championship black belt judoka on the ground and I am just a white belt in BJJ. I'm not saying that judoka black belts are horrible on the ground. They usually give me as hard a time as blues or purples. But they can and often are sucessful without being newaza gods. And it shows.

Sambo234 · 07-30-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azjudoboxer

Doesn't BJJ always claim that it's superior especially against bigger stronger opponents?

I was under the impression there were weight classes in BJJ tournaments?

That was touted in the early years of Jiu Jitsu's introduction in America. Please see UFC 1-3 where Royce beats a bunch of bigger people without any Jiu Jitsu knowledge.

blanko · 07-30-2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambo234

I was under the impression there were weight classes in BJJ tournaments?

That was touted in the early years of Jiu Jitsu's introduction in America. Please see UFC 1-3 where Royce beats a bunch of bigger people without any Jiu Jitsu knowledge.

well not really remko was a judo and bjj guy who had trained with jacare (the other champion) before the ufc fights.

Sambo234 · 07-30-2006, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blanko

well not really remko was a judo and bjj guy who had trained with jacare (the other champion) before the ufc fights.

remco pardoel had terrible jiu jitsu, his style was listed as Judo at the time... I'm not really gonna argue this topic because it's irrelevant.

loui_ludwig · 07-30-2006, 08:28 PM

Thre reasons judo ground grappling is not as good as BJJ is the rules and regulation of today's judo organizaiton(both national and internatinal). From the 1940's-50's to present, judo organizaitons decided that a throw/sweeps/pin can win a match. So most judo schools train in throws/sweeps and giving little time in judo newaza. Its not necessarily the fault of judo that its ground grappling skills is weak comparing to BJJ, but the organizations that places the rules on a judo event.

If Judo schools give at least 50% newaza, they can hold their own against BJJ. Remember also that BJJ, even though it evolved from Judo and Japanese Jujitsu, they have a weak stand up because they mostly concentrate on their ground grappling skills.

blanko · 07-30-2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sambo234

remco pardoel had terrible jiu jitsu, his style was listed as Judo at the time... I'm not really gonna argue this topic because it's irrelevant.

his jiu-jitus was terrible compared to a brasilian black belt. In retrospect, he would have been one of the best non brasilian jiu-jitsu practioners in the world outside of brasil.