[lildog]

Penn has craazy balance, and he has a great ability to just stand right up if taken down. Thats all you need for MMA. IF Randy and Sherk and Hughes all say he is hard to take down, then he is.

The guy that mentioned some stats has hid head up his ass. Believe what you see, and what EVERYONE has seen is Penn rarely being taken down.

[georgejjr]

Originally Posted by Mikey Triangles

That's not necessarily true. You can be World-Class and never actually compete in the Olympics.

Maybe, but its a pretty empty claim unless you've actually been there. The UFC tends to throw around terms like world class freely. Karo is called a world class judoka ... the best he ever did in judo was 3rd in the US, in a division where the US has no one ranked in the top 25. It means Karo probably wasn't in the top 200 in judo in his weight class - is that world class?

Same with most of the wrestlers in the UFC. Hughes simply wouldn't have made the US olympic team (and the US isn't even the best wrestling country in the world), GSP might make the Canadian olympic team if he trained wrestling full time for three or four years (he trains with the Canadian olympic team, and they say he's got the talent, just needs more practice). Randy's word is a lot more valuable, except that doing well in practice is much different than doing well in actual competition ... any athlete in any sport will tell you that. Coaches get headaches from the guys who look good until they actually get into a game situation.

Its a lot like people saying Anderson Silva has world class boxing skills - it might even be true (though I doubt it), but people aren't going to take it seriously unless he boxes someone who is a known world class boxer (say his fight with Roy Jones Jr goes through).

[SpartanWarrior]

Originally Posted by _Glorfindel_

GSP taked him down almost at will.

LOL! I dont know what planet your from but welcome to earth.

[GracieMMABarra]

Originally Posted by _Glorfindel_

GSP taked him down almost at will.

What?

[Blast D]

Originally Posted by georgejjr

Not sure he actually fought a world class wrestler (it means olympic level, and I don't think he's fought a guy who made it to the olympics).

But mainly, as was pointed out above, because of his striking fighters generally have to do their shot from well outside touching range, giving him lots of time to react.

the thing is that if he fought a real olympic wrestler in MMA, their striking would be so bad that they get knocked out as soon as the got close. But in a grappling match im sure the olympic wrestler would take him down (and get submitted).

[Tony Manifold]

Originally Posted by lildog

Penn has craazy balance, and he has a great ability to just stand right up if taken down. Thats all you need for MMA. IF Randy and Sherk and Hughes all say he is hard to take down, then he is.

The guy that mentioned some stats has hid head up his ass. Believe what you see, and what EVERYONE has seen is Penn rarely being taken down.

I don't have my head up my ass but you obviously have your tongue firmly wrapped around BJ's balls. Here is my source:
The life and times of B.J. Penn - MMA - Yahoo! Sports

Penn has fought a bevy of great wrestlers and his legendary flexibility has proved handy in avoiding takedowns. But eventually, these wrestlers always get Penn down. Opponents have attempted 67 takedowns against Penn, succeeding on 25 of them for a success rate of 37%. But that number is heavily influenced by two fights. Matt Serra succeeded on just one of 17 takedown attempts against Penn and Matt Hughes got just one of nine takedowns in their second match. If you remove these stats from the total, you have opponents landing 23 of 41 attempts for a success rate of 56%, which is even better than the average success rate of 48%.

Also according to this:Penn scroll down to the GSP fight.

GSP took him down 4 times out of 5 attempts. That is an 80% rate.

The numbers don't lie. He has good take down defense and his defense against a single is great but in terms of overall percentages he gets taken down around 40% of the time. To put it in perspective, GSP has been taken down 7 times in his career.

[elzar]

Originally Posted by georgejjr

Maybe, but its a pretty empty claim unless you've actually been there. The UFC tends to throw around terms like world class freely. Karo is called a world class judoka ... the best he ever did in judo was 3rd in the US, in a division where the US has no one ranked in the top 25. It means Karo probably wasn't in the top 200 in judo in his weight class - is that world class?

Same with most of the wrestlers in the UFC. Hughes simply wouldn't have made the US olympic team (and the US isn't even the best wrestling country in the world), GSP might make the Canadian olympic team if he trained wrestling full time for three or four years (he trains with the Canadian olympic team, and they say he's got the talent, just needs more practice). Randy's word is a lot more valuable, except that doing well in practice is much different than doing well in actual competition ... any athlete in any sport will tell you that. Coaches get headaches from the guys who look good until they actually get into a game situation.

Its a lot like people saying Anderson Silva has world class boxing skills - it might even be true (though I doubt it), but people aren't going to take it seriously unless he boxes someone who is a known world class boxer (say his fight with Roy Jones Jr goes through).

the thing you have to keep in mind is that elite american wrestlers don't necessarily take up international styles (freestyle, greco), often practicing them in the off-season in high school or college.

i'd say an all-american or NCAA champion is pretty much world-class. how would a freestyle wrestler adapt to the american style? who knows?

IMO, greco is less competitive than freestyle given the smaller circles of competitors.

two greco medalists: Matt Lindland didn't even place in NCAAs in his best season (yet took a silver in the olympics). Couture took second place in NCAAs (yet medaled internationally and was an olympic alternate).

[Tony Manifold]

Originally Posted by elzar

the thing you have to keep in mind is that elite american wrestlers don't necessarily take up international styles (freestyle, greco), often practicing them in the off-season in high school or college.

i'd say an all-american or NCAA champion is pretty much world-class. how would a freestyle wrestler adapt to the american style? who knows?

IMO, greco is less competitive than freestyle given the smaller circles of competitors.

two greco medalists: Matt Lindland didn't even place in NCAAs in his best season (yet took a silver in the olympics). Couture took second place in NCAAs (yet medaled internationally and was an olympic alternate).

Good point. As far as I am concerned if you have competed at an international level, you are world class. That is the purest definition. As far as wrestling goes, a college all american has pretty damn good wrestling and NCAA champ is flat out awesome. Then you have to look at MMA wrestling. Of the big three greco guys in MMA (lindland, Hendo and randy) Randy has the best MMA wrestling yet didn't even compete at the Olympics unlike the other two. I also have to agree on the differences. The big three in North America are Freestyle, Folk and Greco and they are all very different. Not to mention all the other national flavors of wrestling.

[Duncon76]

just proves how much flexibility is important in fighting, actually in anything regarding training. It sure helps

[_Glorfindel_]

Originally Posted by Tony Manifold

I don't have my head up my ass but you obviously have your tongue firmly wrapped around BJ's balls. Here is my source:
The life and times of B.J. Penn - MMA - Yahoo! Sports



Also according to this:Penn scroll down to the GSP fight.

GSP took him down 4 times out of 5 attempts. That is an 80% rate.

The numbers don't lie. He has good take down defense and his defense against a single is great but in terms of overall percentages he gets taken down around 40% of the time. To put it in perspective, GSP has been taken down 7 times in his career.

You made my day.

Another things to add Mickey Triangle??

BJ is hard to take down, but GSP did it easily.

But there is a fact, BJ doesnt care to be taked down, he's a bjj wizard, so maybe we have to put that in the equation.