[K-1Dork]

Originally Posted by blanko

this statment just makes no sense to me. anyway.
chuck is a TRANSFORMED striker, he was a wrestler first who learned how to strike after his d-1 wrestling days. He is not a kickboxer who turned into mma. He is a wrestler who did kickboxing and then came in to mma. Heath was a wrestler,sambo guy who later learned striking. AA, junior world sambo champion. Dan Henderson: grappler. Gomi: grappler. Kid Yamamoo: grappler. Matt hughes; grappler.

Man, wrestler doesnt = submission specialist. I wrestled for 4 years in highschool, I know. I didnt learn one submission from wrestling, so youre point doesnt really make sence to me.

[K-1Dork]

Originally Posted by pbradish

That can be true. What about ground and pound work though? Where I train, we'll sometimes do an hour straight ground and pound, keeping you just short of being KO'd.
Paul
www.mmamuscle.com

Thats different then. If you guys are going hard, then someones gonna feel some pain. Most of the guys I see who incorporate striking into their rolling just tap with the hits.

[FIGHT FAN]

MMA roots are that of grappling. why would a top level boxer or kickboxer want to fight in MMA when they could have more success and make more money in there own respective sports. wrestlers and BJJ guys dont have the option of staying in there own field and thus they move to the UFC and PRIDE if they want to make money and a career. MMA to this day is dominated by grapplers who crosstrain in striking and not the other way around.

[blanko]

Originally Posted by K-1Dork

Man, wrestler doesnt = submission specialist. I wrestled for 4 years in highschool, I know. I didnt learn one submission from wrestling, so youre point doesnt really make sence to me.

wrestling,judo,sambo,catch,bjj are all grappling. Submissions are just a part of grappling. Positioning and controll are what all of these "submission" arts are about (well maybe not sambo). You can't seperate the two, paulo filo os a bjj champion but he is more of a controll guy rather than a "trying to submit you guy" it still makes him a bjj fighter.

[K-1Dork]

Originally Posted by blanko

wrestling,judo,sambo,catch,bjj are all grappling. Submissions are just a part of grappling. Positioning and controll are what all of these "submission" arts are about (well maybe not sambo). You can't seperate the two, paulo filo os a bjj champion but he is more of a controll guy rather than a "trying to submit you guy" it still makes him a bjj fighter.

Here we go. Man, I said wrestler doesnt = submission specialist. What is hard about that to comprehend? Its not a submission art, no matter how hard you try to squeeze it into your "grappling" box. The closest thing to a submission in wrestling, is a pinning combination called the " guillotine," and all it does is pull your legs apart like a "Chinese" split, and it doesnt even hurt if youre flexable.

[blanko]

i am not trying to put anything in a "box" i am just stating that they are all grapplers. Submissions are just a part of grappling or do you not understand that? Where do you think folkstyle originated from? It' came from catch.

[K-1Dork]

Originally Posted by blanko

i am not trying to put anything in a "box" i am just stating that they are all grapplers. Submissions are just a part of grappling or do you not understand that? Where do you think folkstyle originated from? It' came from catch.

Maybe im just not understanding you. I wrestled for 4 years in highschool, and was state champion 3 out of those 4 years, but maybe my coach just forgot to teach us submissions. I never knew that submissions were part of highschool, college, or olympic wrestling. Hmm? so Chuck, Henderson, Matt, and all these other wrestlers in MMA, were "catch" wrestlers, and not collegiate style wrestlers?

[krellik]

...Dork... If you got any good knowledge of the submission based arts you would know that most submissions comes from a solid possition, wrestling is based on ataining solid submissions and also have the takedown aspect that bjj more or less is missing.. That means that wrestling makes it much easier to learn to apply submissions and it also means that a wrestler can dictate where the fight are. Wrestling is an integral part of good grappling and the dominance of good wrestlers in mma proves it!

[K-1Dork]

Originally Posted by krellik

...Dork... If you got any good knowledge of the submission based arts you would know that most submissions comes from a solid possition, wrestling is based on ataining solid submissions and also have the takedown aspect that bjj more or less is missing.. That means that wrestling makes it much easier to learn to apply submissions and it also means that a wrestler can dictate where the fight are. Wrestling is an integral part of good grappling and the dominance of good wrestlers in mma proves it!

You know, your absolutely right. I dont know why youre telling me this though? Its easier for a wrestler to become a submission grappler, as oppsed to someone who just takes up BJJ without any grappling experience, but pure collegiate wrestlers have to learn a lot too. Collegiate wrestling is all out, non-stop action, always scambling for postition. In BJJ you can be calm and wait for oppurtunities. All collegiate wrestling teaches that will apply to MMA or BJJ, is takedowns, takedown defense, controling, and positioning. Not one submission.

[krellik]

Well the thing your saying wrestling gives, takedowns, takedown defence, controlling and possitioning me and most other grapplers would consider to be -more- important than the actuall submissions, the submissions is easily thaugth, its the position game that is the hard part to give somebody....

Bigest problem with wrestling is that it contains no "guard" position... But still wrestling + bjj (or other art focusing on submssions) = great grappling. But without the other both are "flawed" for mma... Wrestling are propably a -more- important part of the mma game than bjj (or atleast equally important..)