[devante]

I am tired of the lack of respect for standup in mma, people just take it to be something that does not require the same amount of time and dev as grappling; now some people will say how do you know and you know what i don't. All i know is the finished product on fight night and from what i see they don't have the growth in their standup that comes from training it hard for 3-4yrs.

When you see top notch strikers or top notch mma strikers on the ground you see the dev in their game, they might start out w/takedown def; but they don't consider themselves good grapplers. They learn how to work the guard...get back to their feet..def/escape submissions and in some cases apply them; an their are many examples of this. Cro cop- yves edwards, bas rutten, vernon white, micheal bisping, vanderlei silva, gsp; all these guys have shown very competent to excellent skills on the ground, having been able to eff def takedowns, work the guard against subs/gnp, work submissions, or get on top or take down grapplers of note. You see the development in their games from when they started to know.

In the case of the grapplers, most just get good enough at it to get someone down w/out getting hit too much or what's worse they half ass at the basics dep on their handspeed/ chin/heart or power to make up for the finer aspects of the game. I can't say i have seen too many grapplers who have worked on crisp off, def, footwork, dist, timing, clinching; they work on off and then have no idea what to do when an opp punches back, counters them or starts moving. Then they are reduced to lunging, one shot at a time or turn into heavybags getting picked apart.

I am not saying these guys need to be world class, but damn 4 years in the game and u still can't trhow an eff combination, you still can't work a basic jab, u still don't know how to use footwork to keep an opp from clinching, or leg kicking u, u still can't counter a shot or slip a jab or punch ur way out of a clinch. That just shows a lack of tech training and a lack of sparring, cus their is no way u can spar w/competent standup guys and not have gotten better at any of those things. NO WAY..

Another point is u never see a striker who learned to grapple trying to outgrapple nog/ fedor/ barnett/ yoshida/ sak/ ken/tito/randy; well then why the hell do we have sub par strikers tryign to outstrike a.silva/cro cop/pedro rizzo/chuck liddel/duane ludwig/ pete spratt. Lawler/barnett/leben/franklin/tito/pulver are just a few of the geniuses who got it handed to them trying to trade w/world class or top mma strikers; all these guys say i got pretty good standup blah blah blah, well i got pretty good grappling..does not mean im trying to go to the ground w/nog. Its just disrespect to the artform.

I am not bashing any fighters, just saying when it comes to grappling u see the improvement, people's guards/takedown def/takedowns/sub def/sub escape/ability to get back up or counter subs makes huge leaps forwards; in some cases the strikers had none of these skills and now have them and can go a round or two or a whole fight in the grapplers realm.

An yet most of these grapplers who learn how to strike don't dev all the skills and could not last a round on the feet w/hunt..cro cop..ludwig or anyone else. I just don't see the wrestlers or grapplers really dev their standup games...not like the strikers do w/their grappling. WWhat do u think

[Sub Master88]

agreed. I've been doing stand up arts since I was six years old.

[samurai_guy]

Originally Posted by devante

I am tired of the lack of respect for standup in mma, people just take it to be something that does not require the same amount of time and dev as grappling; now some people will say how do you know and you know what i don't. All i know is the finished product on fight night and from what i see they don't have the growth in their standup that comes from training it hard for 3-4yrs.

When you see top notch strikers or top notch mma strikers on the ground you see the dev in their game, they might start out w/takedown def; but they don't consider themselves good grapplers. They learn how to work the guard...get back to their feet..def/escape submissions and in some cases apply them; an their are many examples of this. Cro cop- yves edwards, bas rutten, vernon white, micheal bisping, vanderlei silva, gsp; all these guys have shown very competent to excellent skills on the ground, having been able to eff def takedowns, work the guard against subs/gnp, work submissions, or get on top or take down grapplers of note. You see the development in their games from when they started to know.

In the case of the grapplers, most just get good enough at it to get someone down w/out getting hit too much or what's worse they half ass at the basics dep on their handspeed/ chin/heart or power to make up for the finer aspects of the game. I can't say i have seen too many grapplers who have worked on crisp off, def, footwork, dist, timing, clinching; they work on off and then have no idea what to do when an opp punches back, counters them or starts moving. Then they are reduced to lunging, one shot at a time or turn into heavybags getting picked apart.

I am not saying these guys need to be world class, but damn 4 years in the game and u still can't trhow an eff combination, you still can't work a basic jab, u still don't know how to use footwork to keep an opp from clinching, or leg kicking u, u still can't counter a shot or slip a jab or punch ur way out of a clinch. That just shows a lack of tech training and a lack of sparring, cus their is no way u can spar w/competent standup guys and not have gotten better at any of those things. NO WAY..

Another point is u never see a striker who learned to grapple trying to outgrapple nog/ fedor/ barnett/ yoshida/ sak/ ken/tito/randy; well then why the hell do we have sub par strikers tryign to outstrike a.silva/cro cop/pedro rizzo/chuck liddel/duane ludwig/ pete spratt. Lawler/barnett/leben/franklin/tito/pulver are just a few of the geniuses who got it handed to them trying to trade w/world class or top mma strikers; all these guys say i got pretty good standup blah blah blah, well i got pretty good grappling..does not mean im trying to go to the ground w/nog. Its just disrespect to the artform.

I am not bashing any fighters, just saying when it comes to grappling u see the improvement, people's guards/takedown def/takedowns/sub def/sub escape/ability to get back up or counter subs makes huge leaps forwards; in some cases the strikers had none of these skills and now have them and can go a round or two or a whole fight in the grapplers realm.

An yet most of these grapplers who learn how to strike don't dev all the skills and could not last a round on the feet w/hunt..cro cop..ludwig or anyone else. I just don't see the wrestlers or grapplers really dev their standup games...not like the strikers do w/their grappling. WWhat do u think

Hmm... Wreslers in MMA never seem to have that problem...



Greatest thread post in Sherdog that i have seen for a few months now..

[FIGHT FAN]

MMA guys never seem to spar with any good strikers but they always seem to role with the best. i remember when they were doing a profile on matt hughes, and he was talking about how he grapples with guys who are better than him.... but when it came to his standup... you see him sparring with pat miletich and probably jeremy horn and thats about it.. and then he hits the pads a few times and hes finished. but then again, theres only so much these guys can concentrate on, and it would be almost impossible for them to be both outstanding grapplers and strikers.

[devante]

not saying they gotta be outstanding, but damn can u become decent; or at least just admit u don't put the time in working tech or more importantly SPARRING. That is the big issues, they work w/boxing/kickboxing/muay thai trainers; but they don't spend alot of time sparring and it shows, when they hit pads or bag or shadowbox, their tech is good..great. But w/in the context of a fight it breaks down badly.

i mean they are making the same mistakes they made when they first started striking, no headmovement, no footwork, no combinations and can't close/control dist...

it just shows they don't respect it cus they think training w/other ok strikers occassionally is enough..they think that hitting pads is enough...and its not

when it comes to grappling they wrestle guys who dominate them or grapplers who sub them left and right or judoka who throw them left and right.

but when they spar standup they train w/their other ave guys who are on their level or maybe a half or step and a half better than them... an tht won't cut it.

[samurai_guy]

True. ^But its because when you train alot of striking with great strikers, the potential for injury is very high when compared to grappling training.

[espionage3]

I think this trend will change in the years to come. In the beggining of MMA grapplers seemed to have the upperhand so alot of strikers had to adapt and evolve their game. As of late it seems that alot of strikers who have learned the basics of the ground have become very hard to beat. Crocop and Liddell for example. I think alot of the newer and upcoming fighters understand that their stand up game has to improve and be very efficient just to be competative in the big orgs. For example Gilbert Melendez, Josh Koscheck and Nick Diaz are examples of fighters with wrestling or Jiu Jitsu cores but, are willing to improve their stand up as much as possible.

[Ayin]

To the person above me, and everyone else who says it in a post...

STOP USING CHUCK AS AN EXAMPLE OF A STRIKER LEARNING GRAPPLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does NO ONE remember Chuck has an EXTENSIVE wrestling background? Anyone? Chuck did more wrestling than TITO! He is a GREAT example of a GRAPPLER using his ground skills to allow him to fight freely on the feet.

As for striking in MMA, I remember showing some people Fedor vs Nog 3, and everyone there agreed that Nog had much better standup, more precise and crisp, far more technical boxing. But at the end of the fight, he had been dominated by Fedor, and vastly outstruck.
Everyone who gets on these "MMA has evolved, we see more and more strikers, blah blah blah" topics has to see that PURE strikers are not dominating MMA, and never will. What is coming up is the era of the pure MIXED MARTIAL ARTIST, who is equaly adept at all areas.
As for why so many fighters now have such poor standup, it is good enough for them most of the time. Sound like a cop-out? Its not. You only need to be as good at something as you have to be to win. If Mat Hughes can have average stand up skills and still be the best WW in the world, than why would he need to begin concentrating on those skills? Until someone can come along who defeats him with standup, then it is a moot point.

And for anyone who is going to start on about GSP being a great standup fighter who may well beat hughes, George is also a VERY accomplished wrestler, and if he beats hughes, it is going to be his strength on the ground that protects him from Mat so he CAN win the stand up game. Just like with Chuck.

[StrakerRose]

It's very dangerous for someone who's already a professional fighter to train extensively in standup. The danger of getting cuts by training Muay Thai hard 3-4 times a week is too great. If you make your living as a professional fighter, you can't risk being cut and having to postpone a fight. It's much much safer to train wrestling or BJJ. Not that these are less strenuous, just that the potential for fight postponing injuries is far less.

[FIGHT FAN]

MMA culture is that of grappling always has been and i don't see that changing anytime soon. great strikers have pro boxing, k-1 etc... to display there skills and make a living. MMA is the only place where a grappler can make money and it will continue to attract grapplers who will dabble in some standup but the fists and the feet will never be the main weapon in there arsenal.