[CFMC04]

So did Bruce Lee....And that's how I do my jab. It works for me.

[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by Ryukyu Damashi

Jack Dempsey punched with a vertical fist, do you?

I throw jabs and crosses with horizontal fist and hook with the vertical.

There are two issues at question:

1) How to punch to avoid hand injuries?

I am convinced, as are many others, that using the middle of the fist as the point of impact results in fewer hand injuries than using the first two knuckles. Dempsey believed this as well. I think it is true regardless of whether you throw horizontal or vertical punches.

2) What is the most effective punch for speed, power and accuracy?

In Dempsey's time (and pre Queensberry) most fighters believed the most powerful punch to be vertical fist. See this 1891 article in Outing magazine for relevant pictures and text. JManly: A Please for "Style" in Boxing

Boxers of that era also often threw punches from the waist, or even lower. Check out this Dempsey highlights for examples Jack Dempsey highlight by Liu Jin . They did a lot of other things no modern coach would teach including throwing straight punches with the vertical fist.

Looping punches such as hooks derive their power from hip and lower body action, what Dempsey called "shoulder whirl". Dempsey had a brawling infighters style and threw a lot a hooks and other looping shots, having notably one of the best left hooks in history.

Other fighters that throw looping shots use the vertical fist with good effect. Chuck Liddell uses looping hooks and overhand rights that frequently land with the vertical fist. De La Hoya, another notorious hooker, throws looping vertical fist shots including a deadly vertical fist style shovel hook he calls his ".45". Tyson is a classic example, there are others.

Straight punches, the jab and the cross, benefit from twist and the horizontal fist. Twist creates "snap", can cause cuts in competition, and results in more power because it recruits the muscles in the top of the shoulder that otherwise are unused.

Orthodox out fighters that rely on jabs and crosses, which is most of us, will get more power and effectiveness out of straight punches thrown with the horizontal fist.

Boxing moved to this style of punching not long after Dempsey's time. It was the result of having hundreds of fighters hitting things (bags) and people and discovering it was more effective.

It isn't that vertical fist doesn't work, its just that it isn't the best tool for the job if you are talking about jabs and crosses and the "JKD Lead Punch" is just a muthafuggin (pre-1920) jab by another name.

[KOnah]

the 2 strong ones

[VALETUDO1]

I mean in a street fight I don't have time to think what part of my hand I'm gonna hit with, I just wanna KNOCK the other guy out as quick as I can.

[Trim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Azy

It would depend on the type of strike you are making also. For the hook style punch I have found that the first two knuckles are the most effective. For any type of straight punch you want to use the bottom 3. Hand conditioning plays a massive factor too.

That's interesting you do it that way. I've always done it opposite of that.

[Trim Reaper]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

I throw jabs and crosses with horizontal fist and hook with the vertical.

There are two issues at question:

1) How to punch to avoid hand injuries?

I am convinced, as are many others, that using the middle of the fist as the point of impact results in fewer hand injuries than using the first two knuckles. Dempsey believed this as well. I think it is true regardless of whether you throw horizontal or vertical punches.

2) What is the most effective punch for speed, power and accuracy?

In Dempsey's time (and pre Queensberry) most fighters believed the most powerful punch to be vertical fist. See this 1891 article in Outing magazine for relevant pictures and text. JManly: A Please for "Style" in Boxing

Boxers of that era also often threw punches from the waist, or even lower. Check out this Dempsey highlights for examples Jack Dempsey highlight by Liu Jin . They did a lot of other things no modern coach would teach including throwing straight punches with the vertical fist.

Looping punches such as hooks derive their power from hip and lower body action, what Dempsey called "shoulder whirl". Dempsey had a brawling infighters style and threw a lot a hooks and other looping shots, having notably one of the best left hooks in history.

Other fighters that throw looping shots use the vertical fist with good effect. Chuck Liddell uses looping hooks and overhand rights that frequently land with the vertical fist. De La Hoya, another notorious hooker, throws looping vertical fist shots including a deadly vertical fist style shovel hook he calls his ".45". Tyson is a classic example, there are others.

Straight punches, the jab and the cross, benefit from twist and the horizontal fist. Twist creates "snap", can cause cuts in competition, and results in more power because it recruits the muscles in the top of the shoulder that otherwise are unused.

Orthodox out fighters that rely on jabs and crosses, which is most of us, will get more power and effectiveness out of straight punches thrown with the horizontal fist.

Boxing moved to this style of punching not long after Dempsey's time. It was the result of having hundreds of fighters hitting things (bags) and people and discovering it was more effective.

It isn't that vertical fist doesn't work, its just that it isn't the best tool for the job if you are talking about jabs and crosses and the "JKD Lead Punch" is just a muthafuggin (pre-1920) jab by another name.

You make a good point. When I throw a hook I rarely turn it over. When I throw a straight punch I almost always turn it over so that my fist is horizontal, unless I want to throw the punch a little faster or I'm in really close and there's not enough distance to fully extend my arm and turn over my fist. In those cases it's become natural for me to throw a vertical straight punch.

I've boxed for Golden Gloves and I've also boxed for the Army and it really depends on your body type and what style of puncher you are. Anyone who trains for a certain amount of time will figure out how to naturally turn over or line up their fist depending on height, distance, angle, body movement or position, type of punch, etc.

The key really is muscle memory and drilling a variety of punches each way you can think of. If you find it more comfortable to turn over a punch at certain times or line up your knuckles a certain way than stick with it, it's not right or wrong it's just what works best for you, the individual.

[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by Tim Turner

You make a good point. When I throw a hook I rarely turn it over. When I throw a straight punch I almost always turn it over so that my fist is horizontal, unless I want to throw the punch a little faster or I'm in really close and there's not enough distance to fully extend my arm and turn over my fist. In those cases it's become natural for me to throw a vertical straight punch.

I've boxed for Golden Gloves and I've also boxed for the Army and it really depends on your body type and what style of puncher you are. Anyone who trains for a certain amount of time will figure out how to naturally turn over or line up their fist depending on height, distance, angle, body movement or position, type of punch, etc.

The key really is muscle memory and drilling a variety of punches each way you can think of. If you find it more comfortable to turn over a punch at certain times or line up your knuckles a certain way than stick with it, it's not right or wrong it's just what works best for you, the individual.

Nice, Black Knights or All Army?

I sparred off and on with the All Army guys at Huachuca while I was there for a series of exercises in the early 90s.

[Ryukyu Damashi]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

I throw jabs and crosses with horizontal fist and hook with the vertical.

There are two issues at question:

1) How to punch to avoid hand injuries?

I am convinced, as are many others, that using the middle of the fist as the point of impact results in fewer hand injuries than using the first two knuckles. Dempsey believed this as well. I think it is true regardless of whether you throw horizontal or vertical punches.

2) What is the most effective punch for speed, power and accuracy?

In Dempsey's time (and pre Queensberry) most fighters believed the most powerful punch to be vertical fist. See this 1891 article in Outing magazine for relevant pictures and text. JManly: A Please for "Style" in Boxing

Boxers of that era also often threw punches from the waist, or even lower. Check out this Dempsey highlights for examples Jack Dempsey highlight by Liu Jin . They did a lot of other things no modern coach would teach including throwing straight punches with the vertical fist.

Looping punches such as hooks derive their power from hip and lower body action, what Dempsey called "shoulder whirl". Dempsey had a brawling infighters style and threw a lot a hooks and other looping shots, having notably one of the best left hooks in history.

Other fighters that throw looping shots use the vertical fist with good effect. Chuck Liddell uses looping hooks and overhand rights that frequently land with the vertical fist. De La Hoya, another notorious hooker, throws looping vertical fist shots including a deadly vertical fist style shovel hook he calls his ".45". Tyson is a classic example, there are others.

Straight punches, the jab and the cross, benefit from twist and the horizontal fist. Twist creates "snap", can cause cuts in competition, and results in more power because it recruits the muscles in the top of the shoulder that otherwise are unused.

Orthodox out fighters that rely on jabs and crosses, which is most of us, will get more power and effectiveness out of straight punches thrown with the horizontal fist.

Boxing moved to this style of punching not long after Dempsey's time. It was the result of having hundreds of fighters hitting things (bags) and people and discovering it was more effective.

It isn't that vertical fist doesn't work, its just that it isn't the best tool for the job if you are talking about jabs and crosses and the "JKD Lead Punch" is just a muthafuggin (pre-1920) jab by another name.

The Filipino boxing coach I trained with in Okinawa taught me to throw a straight right with a vertical fist.

[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by Ryukyu Damashi

The Filipino boxing coach I trained with in Okinawa taught me to throw a straight right with a vertical fist.

That shit's seriously old-skool.

You were in Oki with the military I take it?

[mkm88414]

side question: what made the dempsey roll work?