**The Infighter's Advantage OR You can't Jab the Liver**

[Hands_of_Burley]

So I'm watching Duran VS Buchanan and as always my mind is swirling with meditations on the Manly Art of Self-Defense.

As I'm watching this classic Im also reading on the fun-da-mentals of boxing, the core concepts of the sport, everything from the uses of each punch to "styles make fights." I'm watching this fight and I'm very intrigued. I had just been reading on how a good jab can be the difference maker in professional boxing. Here's Buchanan, light on his feet, hands up, good, straight, snappy jab, and its finding opening's in Duran's guard. And yet Duran still manages to slip it enough times to get inside and completely maul Buchanan's torso, or time over-hand crosses to Buchanan's cheek. This puzzled me. "I thought a good jab beat everything?"

It got me thinking of the boxing styles. The styles as they were broken down to me were Out-Fighter (Classic Boxer), In-Fighter (not really a bomb thower but a get inside and were you down kinda fighter) and Slugger (feet planted, slow moving, single punching, KO'ing sorta fighter). What I was reading was suggesting to me that the "Classic Boxer" represented somthing of the "ultimate evolution" of the sport.
Fast hands, fast feet, light on the feet, good defensive tricks, a solid Jab, good straight punches. And yet heres Duran, who's does all kinds of cute things himself, granted, getting inside this boxer and nullifying those good, straight punches and that footwork. It then dawned on me. "Body blows," I thought. " When your dancing around the ring you can't dig the body." I've watched and read enough boxing to know that good body punching is something of a lost art and a killer one.

Thinking in those broad stylistic categories, doesnt that mean that the boxer has a distinct dis-advantage vs the slugger or the pressure fighter, since his style never really puts him in a position to throw meaningful body blows to the liver/kidneys?

Can anybody here ever remember fighters like Sugar Ray Leonard, Mohammed Ali, Wilfred Benitez, Pernell Whitaker, or Foyd Mayweather Jr EVER throwing meaningful body blows?
I know "The Old Master" Joe Gans used to advocate throwing straight rights to the solar plexus, and thats about as close as I can vaguely recall a boxer employing (and I dont even know how successfully) body blows.

NOTE: If you managed to get through all that haha and still dont realize it, this more of boxing question than say kickboxing. Does Kickboxing even have Cuties in it?

[mmafan no?]

Fucking confusing, mate.
Assuming you ment that body punching is used way too seldom, I agree.
The thing is, you leave yourself open for risks. That's why Cleveland Williams never just "rushed in" against Ali, he would eat a straight when moving forward=canvas time.
Head movement is the cure to get in close if you fight a tall guy who likes to run and jab, but Duran never had any of that. He moved forward to get close enough to land a KO punch. This didn't work when he moved up a weight class...

And if you're a jab fighter, the jab has to be really good(I'm that sort of style boxer), and you can't telegraph it and always keep moving, stay off the robes - create distance to set up the right when your opponent doesn't expect it. This is really hard to explain via typing and somewhat limited english, but anyways, did you have an actual question?

[toucher]

what you're asserting is that body shots are the be all end all of boxing, and as such, an infighter or slugger who is more prone to throwing body shots has a distinct advantage over an outboxer who is less prone to throwing body shots. that may or may not be true but if an outboxer can nullify the inboxers getting inside to deliver body shots then it all doesn't matter anyways right?

[Tony Manifold]

Originally Posted by Hands_of_Burley

Can anybody here ever remember fighters like Sugar Ray Leonard, Mohammed Ali, Wilfred Benitez, Pernell Whitaker, or Foyd Mayweather Jr EVER throwing meaningful body blows?

Leonard threw a lot of body blows. And mayweather has some sick body attacks. PBF floyd is pretty much a wizard in close.

[DrBdan]

Originally Posted by Hands_of_Burley

...

Thinking in those broad stylistic categories, doesnt that mean that the boxer has a distinct dis-advantage vs the slugger or the pressure fighter, since his style never really puts him in a position to throw meaningful body blows to the liver/kidneys?

...

My observation is that lack of body shots is a disadvantage to being a classic boxer but doesn't put him at a disadvantage. What I mean is that each style has its strengths and weaknesses, this being a weakness. The reverse is true for a in-fighter. For an in-fighter, he lands more body shots but if he stays or is kept to the outside he'll get eaten up. An in-fighter is even worse off against a slugger because while trying to get inside he will have to eat a number of power punches and might get KO'ed before he has a chance to get inside. It's part of the paper/rock/scissors nature of boxing.

[lukewall]

Being a sneaky technical boxer is an advantage in the sense that you have options. You can fight from the outside or get inside and throw short punches. You can use your footwork to create angles. Use head movement and feints to bait people. Having the tools & options in a fight and being able to adjust to different opponents is the real advantage not a stereotyped style.

And even though he isn't known as a pure boxer, Shane Mosley was hitting Margarito with heavy shots to the body to break him down and set up the KO.

[mmafan no?]

Originally Posted by toucher

what you're asserting is that body shots are the be all end all of boxing, and as such, an infighter or slugger who is more prone to throwing body shots has a distinct advantage over an outboxer who is less prone to throwing body shots. that may or may not be true but if an outboxer can nullify the inboxers getting inside to deliver body shots then it all doesn't matter anyways right?

Yea, it's stylistically dumb for an outside fighter to go mainly for the body. It's pretty much a useless gameplan and in my opinion should be used best as a distraction.

[Hands_of_Burley]

Originally Posted by mmafan no?

And if you're a jab fighter, the jab has to be really good(I'm that sort of style boxer), and you can't telegraph it and always keep moving, stay off the robes - create distance to set up the right when your opponent doesn't expect it. This is really hard to explain via typing and somewhat limited english, but anyways, did you have an actual question?

Yeah, I was basically wondering if the classical "Out-Fighter" style of boxing was actually inferior to the In-Boxer ( Or Slugger... but honest-to-God I dislike these categories anyway, they don't capture accurately what happens in the ring IMO) style of boxing because of the lack of the ability to attack the body effectively. Dancing around and throwing straight punches etc. I mean, you cant exactly dance in or lunge in and throw a good liver shot or anything. Just wanted some insight.

And apparantly some classic style boxers (Leonard, Mayweather) do have a decent body attack, so I'll have to check them out.

[Hands_of_Burley]

Originally Posted by toucher

what you're asserting is that body shots are the be all end all of boxing, and as such, an infighter or slugger who is more prone to throwing body shots has a distinct advantage over an outboxer who is less prone to throwing body shots. that may or may not be true but if an outboxer can nullify the inboxers getting inside to deliver body shots then it all doesn't matter anyways right?

True. I guess I'm taking Duran VS Buchanan as something of a pinnacle example. What I mean is this: here you have HOF fighters going up against each other. Both men in their Primes (as far as I know) and both men seemingly representing different approaches to boxing.

Buchanan is the classical boxer, stays on the outside, fires straight, accurate punches, on his toes, constantly moving, etc.

Duran is the intense pressure fighter, albiet a very intelligent one, using feints, ducking, and what not, works behind his jab to get inside and throw crushing blows to the body and head, maybe even dirty the pool a bit.

What I see is this "scientific" Out-Fighter getting beat up by a "brute" In-Fighter (speaking in stereotypical generalities mind you, ring wise. The Classic boxer is usually percieved as a "smarter" way to box versus In-Fighters or Sluggers. Of course, Duran was no dummy). So, taking these two as Peak representatives of their styles, I wonder out loud if a peak fighter who likes to mix it up will always beat a peak fighter who likes to float and sting.

One hypothesis I put forward to support why this may be true is body punching. Simply, the inside guy has more targets. He has more chances to punch effectively. Whenever Duran and Buchanan exchange, Buchanan throws punches to the head, mostly, while Duran throws punches to the head and body, including some crushing uppercuts to the midsection. As the fight goes on, those will take their toll.

Jabbing, sticking-and-moving, straight punching, are all only really effective against a guy's head. Its the only target you got, from Cutie point of view. If you cant damage it or catch it, game over. The pressure guy can throw hooks, uppercuts, even crosses upstairs and downstairs. He has more varied offence. I wonder if its ultimately a more effective offense. And I wonder if its a "better" way to fight

God, I have stop being so wordy haha. You go WAY back to what you said, if the Out Guy can prevent the In Guy from getting there, its a wash, right? From the limited amount of boxing I've watched, it seems like a Great Fighter will always find a way inside a Great Boxer.

[Hands_of_Burley]

Originally Posted by lukewall

Being a sneaky technical boxer is an advantage in the sense that you have options. You can fight from the outside or get inside and throw short punches. You can use your footwork to create angles. Use head movement and feints to bait people. Having the tools & options in a fight and being able to adjust to different opponents is the real advantage not a stereotyped style.

And even though he isn't known as a pure boxer, Shane Mosley was hitting Margarito with heavy shots to the body to break him down and set up the KO.

I love that fight. "Iron-Chinned" Margarito. Yeah, until a few hard shots downstairs. Then *POOF!* Iron Chin...disappears..