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Go Back  Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums > Training Discussion > Standup Technique > Crazy Monkey Boxing + Muay Thai?

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Old 02-18-2008, 07:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
vu

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Awesome...I'd love to have a seminar with both of them (Matt and Rodney...even though I know they've parted ways).
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:34 AM   #12 (permalink)

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War Crazy Monkey! and elbow blocks in general.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:08 PM   #13 (permalink)

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muay boran looks a lot like crazy monkey, an active system of blocking is needed for non gloved combat. in the early 1900's bareknuckled, no rules, muay boran was banned and gloves and rings were used. With gloves you get away with static blocking a lot more, so the crazy monkey style defensive techniques of muay thai were no longer used
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:52 AM   #14 (permalink)

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CM and Muay Thai

CM and Muay Thai blend together really really well. If you have a look at old school thai boxers, such as Apidej at Fairtex (who has certified Rodney to teach MT), they use a very similar hunchback stance to the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme.

One of the CM trainers, Adam Kayoom from Malaysia, is blending CM and thai at title level competition in Thailand on a regular basis.

There are many aspects to CM, the core idea is that it allows people to develop a high level of sparring game while working within their comfort zone. Too many training methods over-emphasise hitting people from a technical perspective, but then rely on attributes to defend. Even simple moves - such as bobbing & weaving, slipping etc need timing. Many people can walk in the door of a gym and be able to swing a punch - virtually no one has the ability to read, time and dodge a shot thrown back when they start training.

So most people's early training is dogged by black eyes, broken noses, dented confidence and (commonly) over-aggression just to keep people away until your defence catches up to your offence. The downside to all of this is that most people find sparring to be such a negative experience - it's not fun having people smash you in the face if you can't stop it - that they quit training before they really develop any skill level.

The CM as a structure works to prevent this happening from a physical standpoint but the coaching method and training environment, which are more important, are designed to allow people to develop the confidence to enjoy their training and get good in a way that allows them to build their game under pressure without having to deal with someone just teeing off on them.

The structure itself is more than just the hand position (there are so many experts on CM out there who have never trained it that this is a myth that doesn't seem to go away).

The hunchback stance is more important than the hand position, without a solid structure to attach your guard to in the first place you are going to get rocked even if you get your hands/arms/gloves in the way of the shot. The biggest flaws you can spot in most people's structure are:
  1. lack of balance
  2. a weak neck
  3. unlocked core
Next time you have a sparring session at your gym, watch out for these. People backing out with their chins up, looking over their gloves without locking their necks solid, bending at the waist, standing tall, back foot skipping or sliding or lifting off the ground when punches are thrown.

Arizona based CM Pro Trainer, Cecil Burch summed these mistakes up really well in a recent post.

Read "What's wrong with your CM?"

All of those flaws are a direct consequence of breaking down structure - most people will solve the problem by throwing their hands harder, which leads to no control, worse structure and more people getting injured. By working to lock down your structure, from the feet up you can begin to fix a lot of these problems.

Solid base

I emphasise how you use your feet alot. I wrote a blog post awhile ago on what I call the plaster cast.

Read "The 'Cast"

By getting people to stabilise their contact with the floor they are better able to use the right muscles for everything else.

Locking down the core

The next step is to lock the core down - imaging trying to sit your ribcage down into your pelvis.

This is the biggest single part of CM for dealing with body shots (everytime I read something saying that CM doesn't deal with body shots I know the author hasn't trained it with a proper CM coach). By locking your core down you switch your core muscles from thin and stretched to compressed and thick. They make armour. Add to that a simple level change when someone throws a body shot and you can ride the shot without having to take your hands off your head. Dropping your hands to cover a body shot is madness, you get knocked out when people double up.

It's such a small move but makes a huge difference - most people get caught with body shots when they are standing too tall, leaning forward or have let someone get in underneath them. All of these can be addressed with a little work on structure.

Setting your neck

The third major aspect is your neck. You need to lift your traps as high as you can to create a cradle for your head, then pull your head down into it. As Rodney describes this 'the 300lb Samoan' approach. I imagine this like having a coathook on the back of your head and some pulling your hoodie up and hanging it on the coat hook. By locking your neck down you limit rotation and 'snap' into your neck. Anything hitting your head won't move it and the energy will be chanelled down into your body. Because your core is solid, it will channel into your legs and because your legs are stable it will transfer into the floor. Woo hoo.

Once this structure is locked down then you can get the most out of the hand movement and guard. But only once it has a solid structure to attach to. Again, a common misconception is that CM is either like Peek-a-boo (which is predominantly about head motion) or shelling (which is about getting an immobile barrier in front of your head).

Neither of these is accurate, the hand motion in CM is about constant movement to deflect shots past your head and send any absorbed energy down into your structure (and to the floor). This allows you to stay in the pocket without getting bounced back and play your game in safety and confidence.



So we're back where we started, confidence. CM is about training in a live environment without the mentality of smashing people and going hard to cover up flaws in your game (or worse flaws in your attitude). By giving people a structure that the more you tighten it the better it works then you can get people sparring safely very, very quickly. The key is safely. Sparring offers unique challenges, and should be something that everyone can benefit from. What CM helps you do is build a really productive training environment where everyone can build their standup game, whether for fun, fitness or competition.

If you want to find out more about CM from the horses mouth go and check out the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme website. Rodney King is teaching seminars in the US (Bellflower, CA) and UK (Manchester, England) in May this year. If you are interested in seeing how CM could help you then details are on the CM site.

Happy training.

If anyone has any questions then drop me a message.

Last edited by revolutiongym : 04-04-2008 at 07:12 AM. Reason: updating of image
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Excellent post, revolutiongym. I've always loved the CM defense and find myself using it out of instinct sometimes if I'm getting fluried on.

I'm going to work some of these tips in and see if I can't get my defensive game up to snuff.
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revolutiongym View Post
CM and Muay Thai blend together really really well. If you have a look at old school thai boxers, such as Apidej at Fairtex (who has certified Rodney to teach MT), they use a very similar hunchback stance to the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme.

One of the CM trainers, Adam Kayoom from Malaysia, is blending CM and thai at title level competition in Thailand on a regular basis.

There are many aspects to CM, the core idea is that it allows people to develop a high level of sparring game while working within their comfort zone. Too many training methods over-emphasise hitting people from a technical perspective, but then rely on attributes to defend. Even simple moves - such as bobbing & weaving, slipping etc need timing. Many people can walk in the door of a gym and be able to swing a punch - virtually no one has the ability to read, time and dodge a shot thrown back when they start training.

So most people's early training is dogged by black eyes, broken noses, dented confidence and (commonly) over-aggression just to keep people away until your defence catches up to your offence. The downside to all of this is that most people find sparring to be such a negative experience - it's not fun having people smash you in the face if you can't stop it - that they quit training before they really develop any skill level.

The CM as a structure works to prevent this happening from a physical standpoint but the coaching method and training environment, which are more important, are designed to allow people to develop the confidence to enjoy their training and get good in a way that allows them to build their game under pressure without having to deal with someone just teeing off on them.

The structure itself is more than just the hand position (there are so many experts on CM out there who have never trained it that this is a myth that doesn't seem to go away).

The hunchback stance is more important than the hand position, without a solid structure to attach your guard to in the first place you are going to get rocked even if you get your hands/arms/gloves in the way of the shot. The biggest flaws you can spot in most people's structure are:
  1. lack of balance
  2. a weak neck
  3. unlocked core
Next time you have a sparring session at your gym, watch out for these. People backing out with their chins up, looking over their gloves without locking their necks solid, bending at the waist, standing tall, back foot skipping or sliding or lifting off the ground when punches are thrown.

Arizona based CM Pro Trainer, Cecil Burch summed these mistakes up really well in a recent post.

Read "What's wrong with your CM?"

All of those flaws are a direct consequence of breaking down structure - most people will solve the problem by throwing their hands harder, which leads to no control, worse structure and more people getting injured. By working to lock down your structure, from the feet up you can begin to fix a lot of these problems.

Solid base

I emphasise how you use your feet alot. I wrote a blog post awhile ago on what I call the plaster cast.

Read "The 'Cast"

By getting people to stabilise their contact with the floor they are better able to use the right muscles for everything else.

Locking down the core

The next step is to lock the core down - imaging trying to sit your ribcage down into your pelvis.

This is the biggest single part of CM for dealing with body shots (everytime I read something saying that CM doesn't deal with body shots I know the author hasn't trained it with a proper CM coach). By locking your core down you switch your core muscles from thin and stretched to compressed and thick. They make armour. Add to that a simple level change when someone throws a body shot and you can ride the shot without having to take your hands off your head. Dropping your hands to cover a body shot is madness, you get knocked out when people double up.

It's such a small move but makes a huge difference - most people get caught with body shots when they are standing too tall, leaning forward or have let someone get in underneath them. All of these can be addressed with a little work on structure.

Setting your neck

The third major aspect is your neck. You need to lift your traps as high as you can to create a cradle for your head, then pull your head down into it. As Rodney describes this 'the 300lb Samoan' approach. I imagine this like having a coathook on the back of your head and some pulling your hoodie up and hanging it on the coat hook. By locking your neck down you limit rotation and 'snap' into your neck. Anything hitting your head won't move it and the energy will be chanelled down into your body. Because your core is solid, it will channel into your legs and because your legs are stable it will transfer into the floor. Woo hoo.

Once this structure is locked down then you can get the most out of the hand movement and guard. But only once it has a solid structure to attach to. Again, a common misconception is that CM is either like Peek-a-boo (which is predominantly about head motion) or shelling (which is about getting an immobile barrier in front of your head).

Neither of these is accurate, the hand motion in CM is about constant movement to deflect shots past your head and send any absorbed energy down into your structure (and to the floor). This allows you to stay in the pocket without getting bounced back and play your game in safety and confidence.



So we're back where we started, confidence. CM is about training in a live environment without the mentality of smashing people and going hard to cover up flaws in your game (or worse flaws in your attitude). By giving people a structure that the more you tighten it the better it works then you can get people sparring safely very, very quickly. The key is safely. Sparring offers unique challenges, and should be something that everyone can benefit from. What CM helps you do is build a really productive training environment where everyone can build their standup game, whether for fun, fitness or competition.

If you want to find out more about CM from the horses mouth go and check out the Crazy Monkey Defense Programme website. Rodney King is teaching seminars in the US (Bellflower, CA) and UK (Manchester, England) in May this year. If you are interested in seeing how CM could help you then details are on the CM site.

Happy training.

If anyone has any questions then drop me a message.
Like whoa...I assume you're a certified CMD instructor, eh? This was an amazing explanation...
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:44 AM   #17 (permalink)

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Hey Vu

Yeah. I head up CM in the UK.

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Old 04-04-2008, 09:11 AM   #18 (permalink)

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That was a excellent post rev.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:26 AM   #19 (permalink)

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Nice post rev.

I interested to mix some CM with my MT when my fundamentals are already solid. But I don't think someone even has an idea what CM is in my area.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:00 AM   #20 (permalink)

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How do you counter with Crazy Monkey?

I see them block punches, but can they punch back with crazy monkey?
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