[franz_grinder]

I'm a kyokushin-kai under a Midori Blackbelt. I really think people are ignoring the roots of K-1 and the Seido-kaikan. and k-1 stikers with Karate roots as a whole. I'm grateful for my roots. It really helps me out in my cross-training. Obviously, alot of people here are not familier with some of the more current kyokushin world champs. In north america it's been gentrified. Hawaiian Kempo/Kenpo is an unofortunate example. In fact the few schools that accurately represent a decent combat style confuddle me as to why they don't change their name from kenpo/kempo as a whole.

I cross train alot and I think my Karate stance has even helped me adapt my stance into a more grapple-ready stance for mma. Not unlike GSP's. I've been grappling for a few years now and my flexibility I got from stretching on the karate floors since I was 7 really pays off. I`m not looking to start any type of TMA effectiveness war here though.

[mvisit1]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

If you post video of a pro fighter, Lyoto Machida, GSP, or whoever else, in a traditional horse or front stance and using gedan barai or age uke in a fight I will take it all back...

Have you ever spent minute after minute in a DEEP horse stand or front stance? Your quads are on fire. I was taught that ancient martial artists used these stances to strengthen the legs because they didn't have dumbbells, olympic bars and 45 lbs plates. I grew up with TKD and NEVER used those stances in a sparring match, keyboard warrior.

[devante]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

It's like this, every second of your training life you spend practicing horse stance, and blocks like gedan barai, age uke, shuto uke, etc., are seconds you could spend learning something that might actually work. This is wasted time. A great fighter can overcome inefficient training and techniques but just think how much better he would be if he started out with shit that actually worked?

Even the best TMA fighters, guys like Lyoto Machida for example, can't make TMA techniques work in combat or competition. Not only do they not work, may of them are self defeating. Blocking full-power, full-contact, low kicks with the hands is a guaranteed way to fuck your hands up and eat lots of tasty counter punches to the head because your hands are too low to defend your head.

If you like TMA for the "philosophy", the camraderie and the feeling of belonging to some ancient warrior society or something, thats fine. If you want or need to have some skills that actually work in a fight, TMA will not only teach you shit that won't work it will give you bad habits that will take years to unlearn. I know. I started off in Shotokan and TKD, and have fucked around with a bunch of other stuff that doesn't work.

MMA, pro KB and MT are full of guys that started out in TMA. Almost all of them have transitioned to a style that uses the same basic punching and kicking techniques as well as defense. Its called evolution.

If you post video of a pro fighter, Lyoto Machida, GSP, or whoever else, in a traditional horse or front stance and using gedan barai or age uke in a fight I will take it all back...

I cant agree on the ufc website machida STATES its his karate and how he has tailored it to mma; that is the reason for his success, an all the tech he uses are classical tech, the punches, the kicks, the spacing and the sweeps, trips, and throws.

[Tim Chan]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

Shotokan is best for standing in front of a mirror practicing stances and defensive techniques that will never work in combat or competition, as well as doing ancient Okinawan Folk Dances known as "kata" where you have another outlet for practicing techniques that won't work outside the dojo. (I have a BB in Shotokan, lucky me...) If you are looking for old school traditional Karate it is A+, for fighting it is C- (see Lyoto Machida for a very notable exception to this, though)

Kyokushin was the original bare knuckle full contact style started by Mas Oyama. It has also split into several styles. Back in the day it was the shizzle. After waaaaaay too many hand and facial injuries the main style of Kyokushin banned closed fist punches to the head in competition, resulting in it becoming sort of like half-assed Tae Kwon Do. If you can find a Kyokushin Dojo that still works punches to the head it is good stuff. Some of the offshoots also incorporate Judo (Kudo) and have their own system of MMA competition. Hard to find in the US though. For TMA I give it a B+ and fighting a solid B (assuming they are teaching sufficient hand techniques and defense).

you realize that shotokan and kyokushin use almost the exact same kata, and practice stances???

[legshot420]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

If you post video of a pro fighter, Lyoto Machida, GSP, or whoever else, in a traditional horse or front stance and using gedan barai or age uke in a fight I will take it all back...

I'd like to see that too.

[T.J.T]

Originally Posted by mvisit1

Have you ever spent minute after minute in a DEEP horse stand or front stance? Your quads are on fire. I was taught that ancient martial artists used these stances to strengthen the legs because they didn't have dumbbells, olympic bars and 45 lbs plates. I grew up with TKD and NEVER used those stances in a sparring match, keyboard warrior.

I belive you missed his point with that comment, but im sure he will explain it better

[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by mvisit1

Have you ever spent minute after minute in a DEEP horse stand or front stance? Your quads are on fire. I was taught that ancient martial artists used these stances to strengthen the legs because they didn't have dumbbells, olympic bars and 45 lbs plates. I grew up with TKD and NEVER used those stances in a sparring match, keyboard warrior.

I have wasted tons of time in horse stance, my Shodan test required marathon horse stance sessions performing other useless techniques.

There's something called specificity of training. If you want your legs to be stronger to do certain things, kicking, footwork etc., you have to train them specifically to do that. Training to stand in Horse stance for hours only makes you better at standing in horse stance for hours. Unless we are having a horse stance endurance contest this ability is useless.

1) You are just making excuses for shit that doesn't work.
2) If the desire is to make stronger legs for fighting there are tons of old-skool techniques that work a lot better and don't use weights; jump rope, plyo, footwork drills, duckwalk, running, etc.
3) You still haven't addressed an entire curiculum and theory of defensive techniques that don't work AT ALL. Do these have mystical ancient training benefits also?
4) Why do TMAs get a free pass for supposedly being "ancient"? O'Sensei Funakoshi brought Karate to mainland Japan in 1921 . Is that ancient? Bare knuckle English boxing goes back at least until 1681. Greek and Roman boxing go back at least a thousand years before that.

[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by Tim Chan

you realize that shotokan and kyokushin use almost the exact same kata, and practice stances???

I do. Virtually all of the traditional/semi-traditional Karate schools, as well as the Tae Kwon Do and other Korean TMA schools and some of the Chinese Kung Fu schools use many of the same Kata. The Heian/Pinan Kata go back to the Chinese Chiang Nan/Channan Kata that came from China, etc.

My point was that *if* for some odd reason, you wanted to go the TMA route to learn fighting skills, you are likely to do less Kata and more likely to do increased practical sparring and drilling at a Kyokushin dojo than a traditional Shotokan dojo. That is my experience.

[NinjaKilla187]

Originally Posted by devante

I cant agree on the ufc website machida STATES its his karate and how he has tailored it to mma; that is the reason for his success, an all the tech he uses are classical tech, the punches, the kicks, the spacing and the sweeps, trips, and throws.

Exactly, he tailored it by changing the techniques so they actually work. My point precisely. So why not teach the stuff that works from the beginning?

I did the same thing Lyoto and other Shotokan Karateka have for generations; learned a bunch of stuff in the Dojo that didn't work and had to adapt it for use in Kumite, then started fighting in tournaments and discovered even more of the stuff I learned in the Dojo didn't work and adapted to even more stuff that did.

If you do this for long enough you wake up one day and discover that you are basically a self-taught kickboxer. This is not an efficient way to train and requires years of adjusting to unlearn the stuff that doesn't work.

[mvisit1]

Originally Posted by NinjaKilla187

Exactly, he tailored it by changing the techniques so they actually work. My point precisely. So why not teach the stuff that works from the beginning?

I did the same thing Lyoto and other Shotokan Karateka have for generations; learned a bunch of stuff in the Dojo that didn't work and had to adapt it for use in Kumite, then started fighting in tournaments and discovered even more of the stuff I learned in the Dojo didn't work and adapted to even more stuff that did.

If you do this for long enough you wake up one day and discover that you are basically a self-taught kickboxer. This is not an efficient way to train and requires years of adjusting to unlearn the stuff that doesn't work.

OMFG, you're a genius! You should write a book so that all can be on your plane of enlightenment. We are not worthy.