[Frodo]

On our grappling club's email list, there is a small debate going on about body hardening. A guy who broke his leg was wondering about "body hardening," or deadening of the
nerves so he could work on his forearms and legs, but NOT his hands or feet. (His words.) Naturally I thought this was a bad idea.

I have no experience with body hardening myself. From what I read on the internet, it seems to be a practiced among some very traditional practitioners of muay thai or karate. However, my research also suggests is time would be better spent sparing, weight training, or other training with modern workout techniques. I don't think body hardening would help his recovery any much in any case. Another guy came into the conservation and stated that he talked to a few people about body hardening, the response he received was, "yeah its great till your 50 then your like a mummy."

However, another guy chimed in that he has done this for Wing Chun. It was taught traditionally in NC while he was in the miilitary. "Our entire class was made up of almost entirely military guys. Civilians didn't last long due to the intensity of the class." He said he used sand bag stuff to condition his hands in various striking forms. They also used a wooden dummy and used each other.

He said it left his shins and forearms swelled up like balloons and black and blue. In fact he still has many calcium deposits from tiny fractures. He had little pain when they healed. The guy said he had X-rays on his joints for various things and had no problems at 37. So he thinks it helped him. He stated that he doesn't think the shin stuff is useful unless you are going to get into MMA, where it could be a great weapon in his opinion. He concede that he sees a lot of fighters getting away from that - theorizing that's because it takes so long to develop.

Personally I think body hardening is a bunch of crap; however, I didn't see very much on Sherdog from a search so I'm asking for your opinions. Is body hardening valuable?

[GroundNPound]

I think it is almost a necessity if you want to fight pro muay thai because of the lack of shin guards but for anyone who does not want to fight pro muay thai/mma it seems kind of pointless. I think your bone density would decide if it would fuck you up for life or not.

[aaron_mag]

Body toughening is not that weird of a concept. It is nothing much more than regular conditioning. Regular free sparring where shins collide seems to do it. I've also noticed that, as I get older and more tentative about colliding shins with the young bucks, that much of the previous toughness of my shins have abandoned me. Ha ha...or maybe it is just age and the lack of recovery that goes along with it...

But certainly there was a time when I'd catch an elbow to the shin and think nothing of it.

EDIT:

Consider knuckle push-ups. You get strong guys who can only do a few push-ups on their knuckles. But after getting used to them for a couple of months they are soon doing bouncing knuckle push-ups. It certainly isn't anything mystical or special...

[Mr. Sinister]

Callouses, nerve endings dulling, bone calcification, these things are no great mysteries. They're all scientifically verifiable. If anyone's ever been hit in the face by an older man who has toughened bricks for fists, you well know the difference between that and getting hit in the face by a young man who has trained, but has always been wearing gloves, handrwaps, etc.

[tatz21]

I've heard of people grabbing handfuls of rice to strengthen fingers or rolling glass bottles and sticks on their shins to kill the nerve endings under the skin. I think its probably better to let the conditioning happen naturally from fighting and sparring or hitting the heavy bag. Even after a couple of years training shin on shin or shin on elbow still hurts but just a little less

[The_Bear]

The conditioning of hands absolutely does work but it should be gradual and slow. You don't go from hitting a bag of sand one day to hitting a bag of iron pebbles the next. There is a certain limit to do it was well. You still want your hands and arms to be nimble, quick, and not deformed. lot of Karate guys will end up with deformed knuckles and hands in their 50's. This is not healthy because they have now overtrained their hands and arms literally.

[Bosozoku]

Frodo: Not sure if this will be a completely satisfactory answer, but will do my best...

Before training shooto and BJJ I spent eight years studying traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu (4 in U.S. and then 4 in Japan) and body conditioning (hardening, as you called it) was an essential part of the training. We conditioned the forearms (inner and outer, for blocking techniques) the shins, the thighs (for receiving low kicks), and of course the knuckles. Basically the drills consisted of standing across from a partner and repeatedly smashing your forearms together for several minutes, trading low kicks, etc. For beginning students it is very painful: they flinch and shy away. For advanced students it is less painful: which would indicate that it does work for deadening the nerves.

The simple idea is that when you block kicks or punches, you can receive the impact without damage, and against a weaker opponent, actually give more than you get.

The more complicated argument, which I support, is that the psychological benefits far exceed the physcial: the ability to accept and endure severe bodily pain is essential if you study the martial arts for self defense (which has traditionally been the case, though not so much today). Getting hit and receiving damage is a part of fighting, and it is important to train your mind to overlook the pain and proceed naturally. Body conditioning achieves this. If you throw a kick and catch an elbow it hurts like a bitch: if you wince and hobble, your opponent knows you are hurt, and it is his advantage. If you immediately throw two more kicks, despite the pain, there is no advantage lost. Conditioning lessens the pain, and, more improtantly, teaches you to ignore it. My karate sensei in Japan had two English sentences: "Control your body" and "Forget pain." That, for me, was the essence of karate.

I know you are more of a grappler (I've seen you a lot on that forum), as I am too these days, so the concept of accepting pain in training is kind of anathema to positive results. But as my shooto teacher Sakurada sensei told me: "Wrestling is your body, Submission is your mind, and Stand up is your heart." Stand up, more than anything, is about accepting and controlling pain. It is, I believe, more psychological than any other aspect of fighting. Standing across from another man who has forearms like lead pipes, and repeatedly slamming your own bruised, swollen, and numb arms into his, is good spirit training.

I can't say much about the after effects over time, but Morio Higaonna, head of the International Okinawan Goju Ryu Federation, is possibly the most respected traditonal martial artist in the world, a living treasure in Japan, in his late sixties, and the most "hardened" man I have ever encountered. Watch his power training video and you will see a man who has spent a lifetime slamming his hands into stones, and he's still at it. But I will admit he is a freak.

[Gungnir]

MAybe you can toughen up your knuckles... but can you still rock out heavy ****l anthems on your guitar. That is the question.

[damastakilla]

Originally Posted by Gungnir

MAybe you can toughen up your knuckles... but can you still rock out heavy ****l anthems on your guitar. That is the question.

Damn, never thought about that... Good ****phor, I wouldn't condone(or do) knuckle conditioning, if thats the case.

[The_Bear]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

Frodo: Not sure if this will be a completely satisfactory answer, but will do my best...

Before training shooto and BJJ I spent eight years studying traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu (4 in U.S. and then 4 in Japan) and body conditioning (hardening, as you called it) was an essential part of the training. We conditioned the forearms (inner and outer, for blocking techniques) the shins, the thighs (for receiving low kicks), and of course the knuckles. Basically the drills consisted of standing across from a partner and repeatedly smashing your forearms together for several minutes, trading low kicks, etc. For beginning students it is very painful: they flinch and shy away. For advanced students it is less painful: which would indicate that it does work for deadening the nerves.

The simple idea is that when you block kicks or punches, you can receive the impact without damage, and against a weaker opponent, actually give more than you get.

The more complicated argument, which I support, is that the psychological benefits far exceed the physcial: the ability to accept and endure severe bodily pain is essential if you study the martial arts for self defense (which has traditionally been the case, though not so much today). Getting hit and receiving damage is a part of fighting, and it is important to train your mind to overlook the pain and proceed naturally. Body conditioning achieves this. If you throw a kick and catch an elbow it hurts like a bitch: if you wince and hobble, your opponent knows you are hurt, and it is his advantage. If you immediately throw two more kicks, despite the pain, there is no advantage lost. Conditioning lessens the pain, and, more improtantly, teaches you to ignore it. My karate sensei in Japan had two English sentences: "Control your body" and "Forget pain." That, for me, was the essence of karate.

I know you are more of a grappler (I've seen you a lot on that forum), as I am too these days, so the concept of accepting pain in training is kind of anathema to positive results. But as my shooto teacher Sakurada sensei told me: "Wrestling is your body, Submission is your mind, and Stand up is your heart." Stand up, more than anything, is about accepting and controlling pain. It is, I believe, more psychological than any other aspect of fighting. Standing across from another man who has forearms like lead pipes, and repeatedly slamming your own bruised, swollen, and numb arms into his, is good spirit training.

I can't say much about the after effects over time, but Morio Higoanna, head of the International Okinawan Goju Ryu Federation, is possibly the most respected traditonal martial artist in the world, a living treasure in Japan, in his late sixties, and the most "hardened" man I have ever encountered. Watch his power training video and you will see a man who has spent a live time slamming his hands into stones, and he's still at it. But I will admit he is a freak.

I agree with a good portion of that. I love that quote "Wrestling is your body, Submission is your mind, and Stand up is your heart."