[FIGHT FAN]

not everybody can be taught to throw a punch or kick, and not everybody is big or strong enough to grapple. groin, throat, headbutts and eye strikes work and anybody no matter how weak or small can be taught to use them effectively.

[Prokofievian]

Originally Posted by James Keith

Of course plenty died from boxing, but by quasi legal I did mean something other than illegal. But let's stick to the issues that are relevant and not hunt for things to argue about.

I doubt you actually threw a real punch or kick at a partner, who wasn't holding a bag to catch it, on the first day in a beginner MT class. Or took one.

In KM of course you choke people and get choked. I already said that. It happens during the training for techniques to escape chokes...

By "simulate" I meant not use real knives and guns. You can get stabbed with a rubber knife. It can hurt. If you want to get stabbed with a real one you need a different kind of help.

What is "suspect training methods"? Hitting bags is suspect? Practically every striking class does that (except of course the ones that are true bullshit). Grappling is done just like everywhere else that uses grappling--as hard as you and your partner want to go. Don't like canned situations where someone attacks you and you have to respond in a certain way to practice a technique? Who doesn't do that?

By the way I'm not some huge KM-lover myself, I don't do it anymore. I also prefer MT. I mentioned some drawbacks, I agreed it didn't have all the things you wanted. But i don't agree with this bullshido-style "AHA ITS FAKE! GOCHA!" business being applied to it. It isn't.

Whether something can possibly be legitimate for self defense and not be a sport is a different (and pretty stupid) argument. Is there a tasering competition anywhere? If not then tasers must be a scam.

Yes, I did throw a punch and a kick, and the partner was expected to form-block. I form-blocked too slow on my first one, and I didnt make that mistake again.

If they do indeed choke, then fuckin eh, I'm all for it. But it's just not something that I've seen. Until I see people getting choked out by a resisting opponent wearing a krav-maga shirt, I'm not so sure I can bring myself to fully accept your claim.

The 'suspect' training methods that I'm talking about is, I've seen a lot of weak, slow ass people doing krav maga, and they seem to be demonstrating some pretty slick techniques. The problem is, without that physical discipline, and full-on sparring, which has yet to be adequately demonstrated for the purposes of this debate, the slickest of techniques just become floppy and ineffective: especially so against someone who does have a very disciplined body. Show me ROUNDS of bagwork with people building power, and intensity. Show me grueling workouts. Show me full contact sparring(seriously, show me), and I'll stfu right here, tonight.

I dont claim that it's fake, and I even support the philosophies of it. All I want is to see some motherfuckers get KTFO or choked the shit out. Or at least some full on MMA sparring, something like this. This is the way that I believe ALL arts should be trained. Imagine if Taekwondo trained like this: with punches to the face, rounds of bag work, pad work, exposure to grappling and full-on no-holds-barred sparring- UFC 1 might've gone very differently. This is what's not been made abundantly clear to me; hence, I have a difficult time with the whole "ZOMG KRAV MAGA" supporters.

As for the legitimacy for self-defence part. Yeah, it might be. But wouldnt it be even MORE legitimate if they'd actually FOUGHT before? Drilling techniques is great. We do it every single day in BJJ, but it's a tool. A means to an end, incomplete without it's complementary tools.

Such is my problem with Krav Maga.

[darnok]

Alrite noobs, I read most of this thread and there is quite a bit of bullcrap in here.

The techniques in Krav Maga are pretty much gotten directly from Boxing, MT, Karate, BJJ, and wrestling. The only difference is some of those techniques are specifically aimed at the groin and eyes, but those are only to distract so you can clinch and knee the person. All combos are finished with a clinch and knees. The clinch is either double plum, or more often a single neck tie + an underhook on one arm. Everything that you do, from the groin kicks, to punches, to eye gouges is meant to get you into that one familiar position where you are kneeing the shit out of your opponent. There are some basic JJ moves to help you get yourself out of bad positions on the ground, and there are karate like strikes that involve backhands and there is lots of elbows.

The techniques are not super deadly, no more so than any technique in MT or boxing. The drills are called "stress drills" where instead of practicing your combo, you will close your eyes, then you will get hit in the face with a pad or someone will pull your hair or just start chocking you, and you gotta instantly throw punches and clinch and knee the person, then run. The focus on technique isnt as large as it is on having an instant reaction to an attack and to throw lots of combos and basically just overwhelm the other person.

Krav Maga is much more physically intensive than boxing and mt because it is meant to get you into shape fast so you can go from being cold to doing a 100% attack into your opponent for 2 minutes and overwhelm your attacker in that time. You pretty much feel like you are doing a full on sprint for the entire hour of your training. My current boxing gym or the MT I used to do don't come even close as far as intensity. MT and boxing focus more on technique while Krav Maga focuses more on output, power, speed, and simply throwing an overwhelming number of strikes.

Against a trained fighter in the ring a Krav Maga guy would not last very long. That is not what it is meant for. In real life, fights have a very familiar format. Someone mouths off, someone pushes, then the first punch is thrown or someone gets bear hugged etc (or you just get attacked out of no where). The point of Krav Maga is to get you to immediatley overwhelm a person who is still in the mouthing off, pushing, or throwing the first punch stage. It is meant to give you a cool head in dangerous or surprise situations. There are situations in which even trained ring fighters lose their cool and start yelling at people with their hands by their sides, wide open for a big punch (look at coleman vs shogun for a good example of this).

If you have no fighting experience and want to learn how to defend yourself in a hurry, Krav Maga is by far the best way to go. Within a few weeks you will punch harder, faster, be in a great shape, and have better coordination (they do a lot of punch-kick combos like in MT).

After 6 months to a year, it is probably a good idea to move on to boxing or MT to refine your technique and learn how to spar against a skilled fighter, rather tahn simply overwhelm someone who isn't quite expecting that level of aggression from someone they saw as an easy target.

[krazylarry]

Originally Posted by alltherage

krav maga to me, seems as much about mental training and conditioning as it does the physical side. the only way to get used to be being punched full force, is to get punched full force

How can you mentally train when there is no sparring? Without sparring you never come close to knowing what a real fight feels like until it is to late.

[changes2008]

Krav Maga is really cool because its seems you always attack before you get attacked. =P

[darnok]

Originally Posted by krazylarry

How can you mentally train when there is no sparring? Without sparring you never come close to knowing what a real fight feels like until it is to late.

There is sparring in Krav Maga.

[tirofijo]

Originally Posted by darnok

There is sparring in Krav Maga.

As Prokofievian said, post the video then.

There are hundreds (a thousand?) of Krav Maga teachers and classes. Surely some of them have filmed some of these sparring session and put them on youtube, right? And if you do find something on youtube, it doesn't mean the other 99% of Krav Maga classes are doing the same caliber of sparring.

I can only iterate what I said. The Krav Maga class I attended (yes, a ridiculously small sample) was full of obese and wimpy teenagers. No full contact sparring going on there.

Here's a clip of full contact RBSD training YouTube - RBSD Scenario training in FIST helmets on SouthNarc seminar

[darnok]

Originally Posted by tirofijo

As Prokofievian said, post the video then.

There are hundreds (a thousand?) of Krav Maga teachers and classes. Surely some of them have filmed some of these sparring session and put them on youtube, right? And if you do find something on youtube, it doesn't mean the other 99% of Krav Maga classes are doing the same caliber of sparring.

I can only iterate what I said. The Krav Maga class I attended (yes, a ridiculously small sample) was full of obese and wimpy teenagers. No full contact sparring going on there.

Here's a clip of full contact RBSD training YouTube - RBSD Scenario training in FIST helmets on SouthNarc seminar

Sounds like you went into a womens self defense class. We had some young people and women, but it was mostly very fit young males.

First video on youtube when I searched "krav maga sparring"

YouTube - Krav Maga Sparring

[R. Flagg]

Originally Posted by tirofijo

As Prokofievian said, post the video then.

YouTube - RBSD Scenario training in FIST helmets on SouthNarc seminar

Here you go. Took me 20 seconds to find on Google:

YouTube - Krav Maga Sparring

YouTube - Krav Maga Sparring, part 2

YouTube - Krav Maga Sparring, part 3

Sorry, no knockouts or chokes, but it does look like sparring.

[tirofijo]

Originally Posted by darnok

Sounds like you went into a womens self defense class. We had some young people and women, but it was mostly very fit young males.

First video on youtube when I searched "krav maga sparring"

YouTube - Krav Maga Sparring

Yeah, doesn~t look anything like what Krav Maga is supposed to be though, does it? High kicks to the head? Tell me that's taught in KM. That was a straight up kick boxing. I kept hearing "Work the jab, Robert". Spinning back fists? Tell me if that is taught in Krav Maga. I could go on.

Try again. Just because it say's Krav Maga on youtube doesn't mean it is Krav Maga.

(However, it's probably better to spar with kickboxing than to pull punches with Krav Maga).

Where were the elbows and kicks to the groins? How come neither of them fell to the ground, rolling in pain, like they do in all of the Krav Maga videos?

Why doesn't the sparring look like this video?

YouTube - The Best Krav Maga Demo Video Period! (Spoiler alert: it's one of those staged videos where the attacker falls to the ground from one punch from a 105 lbs woman. Good production values, though.)