[Alzi_]

Originally Posted by linx

Every grappling art has strenghs and weakness. BJJ realies on gi as well, many submissions in BJJ are hard or impossible to do without a gi.

That may be true of traditional sport BJJ but BJJ, unlike Judo, is a fluid and dynamic art that has branched out into different styles. No-gi BJJ has been developed for this reason to address the needs of MMA.

BJJ also seriously neglects the stand up portion of the grappling. This arguably makes it less suitable for MMA than judo right "out of the box". Wrestling has it's weaknesses as well, no submissions is one.

That's like saying Muay Thai is flawed because it lacks a ground game. BJJ does not claim to be an expert on takedowns or striking. It specializes in ground grappling and arguably does it better than anyone else. Judo, while it addresses both standup and ground, is not great at either. Judo's ground game isn't even in the same league as BJJ, Sambo, or catch wrestling. The standup is really Judo's bread and butter however the reliance on the gi makes it unsuitable for MMA and puts them at a disadvantage against wrestlers who are better at controlling their opponent using head control, overhooks, and underhooks. That is unless Judokas follow Karo's lead and start adapting their sport for MMA instead of the Olympics. I don't see why no-gi Judo couldn't be developed in the same fashion that no-gi BJJ was. Seems to me that Judo is more rigid and less open to change than other MAs.

You are wrong about the 5 second ground limitation in judo. It takes 25 seconds to win a judo match with a pin, which would obviously be imposssible way to win with such a limitation.

I meant the 5 seconds as hyperbole not literally. My point is, since Judo severely limits groundwork, Judo guys tend to have weaker ground games on the whole. Of course there are some exceptions but I'm talking in general.

I'd also argue your point about the lack of ground control in judo. You are trying to show how judo lacks ground control by providing a single example. That's a poor way to prove something. I could counter with two Nog fights - he couldn't maintain a top position against Fedor a single time. He often got reversed during takedown attempts as well. Fresh Nastula also reversed Nog with ease when he was on top.

Fedor is a Samboka. Nog destroyed Nastula.

For ground control I would say that with everything else being equal wrestling > judo > bjj. In judo you can win a fight by pinning your opponent. Ability to pin translates into the ability to control the fight on the ground and maintain top position. Wrestling has it, judo has it, BJJ does not.

Mount and back control are not pins? BJJ gives you the ability to control, escape, and submit your opponent from any position. Go watch UFC 1-5 to see how pure wrestlers and judokas fare against pure BJJ fighters.